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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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[soft female voice]
Breathe in...

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and relax.

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Know yourself.

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Become your own attention.

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[intriguing electronic music]

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[electronic beep]

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This test
is about your personality.

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You must answer,
"strongly agree"

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"agree," "neutral",
"disagree", "strongly disagree"

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Agree.

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[pulsing music]

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Our lives are shaped
as profoundly by personality

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as they are
by gender and race.

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A lot of people say,
it's what makes somebody tick.

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To me it's more around how
somebody portrays themselves.

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Who we are, what we're good at,
what we are capable of doing.

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These are really big questions
and one way of answering them

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in our society has become
taking a personality test.

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I am somewhat
of a thrill seeker.

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I get angry more often
than nervous.

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People's feelings are
sometimes hurt by what I say.

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Personality testing can be
the key that unlocks the life

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that you want to live

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or something
that seems against you

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in ways that you may not even
be aware of.

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Okay, so this is
my first YouTube video.

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The first one
with my face in it anyway.

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I look like an idiot.
I've got these cherry lips.

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My lips are chapped,
I don't know what's going on.

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[sighs] So it's...

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it's about 4am
on January 1st 2017,

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so it's the new year

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and I'm already feeling
like depressed about it

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I'm an introvert.

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If you're in the Myers-Briggs
I'm an INFJ.

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For those of you out there
who are introverts

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or if you've taken that test

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and you're an INFJ,

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I'd be interested to hear from
you if you feel the same way.

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Are there any other INFJ
women out there?

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Are you new to MBTI
or are you just getting started?

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Ladies and gentlemen,
greetings

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from the other side
of YouTube.

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When I first started
making videos on YouTube,

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the personality niche
was really small.

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But over the past few years
it's gotten really big

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it's really exploded.

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Hey guys,
it's Lizzie, so today's video,

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it's about Myres-Briggs...

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...and it's just like a trend
going around.

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People keep randomly saying,
"Oh, I'm HIJK..."

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The most definitive
personality test of them all

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is the Myers-Briggs.

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If you don't know
what the Myers-Briggs is,

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that's alright, just know
that it is the most well known

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personality type quiz
in the world

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and it breaks us all down
into 16 distinct types.

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The theory is
that your personality

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is constructed in such a way

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where you are blind
to certain things that you do

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and ways that you cause
problems for yourself.

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You find it difficult
to introduce yourself

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to other people?

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-Yeah, disagree.
-Yes.

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So typology is a tool for you
to be able to see the things

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that your mind
is hiding from you.

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"You often find yourself lost in
thought when you

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were walking in nature."
Strongly agree.

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Often find yourself
lost in thought

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when you're walking in
nature?

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Does this test think I'm active?
What's walking?

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When I first took the test
and I got my results back

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I was like, wow,
this thing knows me better

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than I know myself.

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I am ENTP-T.
Wooo-hoo-hoo!

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ENFP-T, a campaigner.

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Mediator, no one can stop you
from dreaming.

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As a Beta personality type
is ultimately devil's advocate.

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That's me!
Hello devil.

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Cause when you find out
your personality type

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you realize
that you're not alone.

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My personality type is INFJ.

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So that means
the first letter is I

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which stands for introverted
versus extrovert.

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The second one is N,

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which stands for intuitive
rather than sensing preference.

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Then the next letter is F

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which stands for feeling
and that's opposed to thinking.

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And then the last letter is J,
and the dichotomy there

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is J-O-P which is
judging or perceiving.

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For an INFJ,
the description is usually

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something like their mind
works in a way

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that's very different
from everyone else.

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They can be disconnected
from the real world

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and INFJ's are
the rarest type.

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People want
to understand themselves

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and the Internet is
a great tool to really dive

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into what are the differences
between everybody.

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Love is like beauty
and the beast.

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Love is what you are looking at
right now.

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There is no such thing as love.

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Everyone wants to know who's
going to be

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their perfect partner,
who they're going to marry.

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Want to know
when Prince Charming

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is going to walk
through the door

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that you have
his personality type.

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And you can say there he is,
there is the ENFP

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that I'm supposed to
be with, right?

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Nothing becomes trendy,

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nothing becomes
important in pop culture

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if there isn't some aspect
of it working in reality, right?

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There's a trend about something
because people like it

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and there's value in it.

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[upbeat music]

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When I was 21,
my first job out of college

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was as a management consultant
at a large corporation.

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And one of the first things

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all new employees
were asked to do

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was to take
the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

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They whisked us away
to a very luxurious offsite...

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...and they brought in
a career counselor

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to tell us what our types were

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and how we might fit into the
corporation based on our types.

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And I remember her
telling me... "You are an ENTJ."

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"You are the CEO type...

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...and one day
you might even become...

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head of this organization."

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I was completely taken in by it.

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Fast forward six months

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I was a terrible
management consultant.

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I spent most of my time
reading novels under my desk.

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And I quit to become a writer.

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And I thought I might write
something on personality.

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And I remember
the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator

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and I started doing
some digging into it.

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And I discovered
that the people who invented it

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were not two men,
Myers and Briggs...

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...but two women,
a mother and a daughter.

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And that really moved
and intrigued me.

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And I wanted to understand
how these two women

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who had no formal training
in psychology

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had come to design
the world's most popular

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personality test.

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I think what's absolutely
essential

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to the history of type
is that it begins it's life

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as a domestic experiment.

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[baby crying]

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Katharine Cook Briggs gives
birth to three children.

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Only one of whom,
Isabel, survives past infancy.

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And after seeing
the incredible fragility

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of human life,

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Katharine starts to wonder
about what it means

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to bring a person
into the world

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and what it means
to be a person in the world.

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[baby cries]

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She cordons off her living room,
into what she calls

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the cosmic laboratory
of baby training

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and she starts with
what she begins to think of

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as a series of experiments
on the personality

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of her daughter Isabel.

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Years later,
Isabel goes away to college

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and Katharine has a complete
crisis of faith

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because she's dedicated
her whole life,

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not just to her child
but to her child's personality

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and she doesn't know
what to do with herself.

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But one day she reads
in the New Republic

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a review of a new work
by Carl Jung

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called "Psychological Types"

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and she's entranced
and she orders it immediately.

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We need more understanding
of human nature

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because the only real danger
that exists is man himself.

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He is the great danger

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and we are pitifully
unaware of it.

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This psyche should be studied

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because we are
the origin of all coming evil.

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After Katharine read
"Psychological Types" in 1923,

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she writes to Isabel and says

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that she needs
to burn all of her notes

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and she needs
to begin her life anew

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as one of Jung's disciples.

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And she sees a way of bringing
the language of types

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that Jung has developed,
to the United States...

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...and use it
to transform American society.

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[expectant music]

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Can you handle a fast paced
working environment?

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I had always really wanted
to do comedy.

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The speed at which
you're asking me these questions

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makes me question
how fast paced it truly is.

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The first one I did was the 16
personalities

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at a job
interview.

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Okay.
You're hired.

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-We're interviewing you.
-Oh.

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My Channel started to blow up.

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Like... what!

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I am killing it.

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People just like to see
this format over and over again

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because they can learn more
about themselves

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and about other people in like
a quick humorous format.

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Dating can be a struggle
for introverts.

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What with the talking to people

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and leaving the house
but fear not.

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This is the introverts
survival guide to dating.

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Good first date spots
for introverts include

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the coffee shop,
the library and the cemetery.

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I get comments
and emails all the time

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and they range
from things like

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what would a relationship
look like

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between an ENFP and INTJ?

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But then I also
get people saying

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"You're the only person
who really understands me."

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People who are like going
through like a fresh divorce.

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Yeah I'm here
with my INFJ girlfriend.

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It is Valentine's Day.

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For those of you
who did not know I'm an INFJ...

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Even once I had someone
who was feeling suicidal

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and posting about it and it's

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all these really
deep weighty things

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and some people viewing this

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form a very strong
emotional bond,

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when they know
that they are not a freak,

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when they are not alone,
when they're not broken.

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When someone else can just say
what they've been thinking

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and feeling
and make it seem normal.

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[suspenseful electronic music]

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Personality testing is
a multibillion dollar industry

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and is growing
at at least 15% a year.

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What I'm helping my clients do
is to compete and win.

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The world is
like a large poker game,

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where we're trying
to crunch the numbers

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and we're trying
to count the cards

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and trying to ascertain

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do they have a full hand
or are they bluffing?

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[electronic music continues]

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Approximately 70% of
an organization's expenditures

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is on human capital.

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And when there's all kinds
of psychological data available

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that can help inform companies

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on what kind
of human capital they invest in,

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it's going to be very appealing
to organizations,

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to use that data,

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to try to maximize their return
on investment.

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The two most popular
personality assessments

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on the market today

246
00:15:12,029 --> 00:15:15,029
are the Myers-Briggs
and the Big 5.

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00:15:15,049 --> 00:15:16,100
The Coke and Pepsi

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00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,129
of the personality
assessment world.

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They have similar categories
and several things in common.

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Most of the personality
assessments on the market today

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00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:33,179
are based on the Myers-Briggs
and or the Big Five.

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Sometimes the two
of them together.

253
00:15:43,139 --> 00:15:46,149
Algorithms are everywhere.

254
00:15:46,169 --> 00:15:50,080
They sort and separate
the winners from the losers.

255
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:54,080
The winners get the job
or good credit card offer.

256
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:57,139
The losers,
don't even get an interview.

257
00:15:57,159 --> 00:16:00,000
I actually think personality
tests are fun to take.

258
00:16:00,019 --> 00:16:01,210
You know,
in a loose stakes environment

259
00:16:01,230 --> 00:16:03,210
if have you ever taken
a personality test

260
00:16:03,230 --> 00:16:05,190
it's like fun
because you basically get

261
00:16:05,210 --> 00:16:07,100
to think about yourself,

262
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:08,190
and talk about yourself.

263
00:16:11,059 --> 00:16:14,110
It's not fun
if it's high stakes.

264
00:16:19,179 --> 00:16:21,120
[dog barking]

265
00:16:21,139 --> 00:16:25,179
Good thing
I got my my cold sleeves.

266
00:16:27,210 --> 00:16:28,019
I am set.

267
00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:36,120
We have two different
types of people right here.

268
00:16:36,139 --> 00:16:38,190
We got Barrett.
He's doing the pulling.

269
00:16:38,210 --> 00:16:42,100
And then Danny, he's the one
keeping us in check.

270
00:16:43,159 --> 00:16:45,090
So we couldn't just
have two Barrets

271
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:46,029
because that'd be too much.

272
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:51,190
I was already on

273
00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:55,100
to the whole
personality test industry

274
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,009
and I came across Kyle's story

275
00:16:58,029 --> 00:16:59,110
and it just seemed...

276
00:17:00,049 --> 00:17:01,120
...amazing.

277
00:17:05,089 --> 00:17:06,180
But it wasn't just Kyle.

278
00:17:08,170 --> 00:17:10,079
It was anybody
who would have answered

279
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:11,130
questions like Kyle.

280
00:17:14,089 --> 00:17:16,019
So I guess it starts really

281
00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:18,200
with I was in school
up in Nashville

282
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:21,210
and I ended up having to take
a leave of absence

283
00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:25,220
during which I was diagnosed
with bipolar disorder.

284
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,039
And then after I graduated

285
00:17:28,059 --> 00:17:31,140
I decided I would get
a part time job.

286
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:36,140
And one of my friends
that I had made,

287
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,089
he worked at Kroger,
in the pharmacy

288
00:17:39,109 --> 00:17:41,220
and I told him I have to take
my own medication myself.

289
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,009
so I'd really like to be
on the other side

290
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:47,039
helping people
with their medication.

291
00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:53,009
And he brought my case
before two of his managers there

292
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:55,059
and he came back to me
and explained

293
00:17:55,079 --> 00:17:56,230
they are both
on board with this,

294
00:17:57,009 --> 00:17:58,069
let's move forward.

295
00:17:58,089 --> 00:18:01,069
All we've got to do now
is you've got to submit

296
00:18:01,089 --> 00:18:03,009
your resume to online
and take a test.

297
00:18:05,089 --> 00:18:08,200
The next day I go upstairs
into my room.

298
00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:11,130
Lock myself in my room
because I'm taking a test.

299
00:18:12,099 --> 00:18:13,150
So, no distractions.

300
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,109
[soft keypad punching]

301
00:18:21,170 --> 00:18:24,069
I start taking this test
and I'm thinking to myself,

302
00:18:24,089 --> 00:18:27,109
"This is easy,
I'm good at this,

303
00:18:27,130 --> 00:18:28,210
I'm good at being honest."

304
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:32,019
"I'm just going to go right
through this exam,

305
00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:34,220
submit."
And did it.

306
00:18:39,019 --> 00:18:39,230
And then over the next few weeks

307
00:18:40,009 --> 00:18:43,000
I'm kind of still waiting
to hear back.

308
00:18:43,019 --> 00:18:46,140
My friend drops in again
and I asked him,

309
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,119
I said,
"Hey, how's the job going?"

310
00:18:49,140 --> 00:18:51,059
"Like I submitted
the online test."

311
00:18:51,079 --> 00:18:56,119
And he then explained to me
that the manager said

312
00:18:56,140 --> 00:18:57,200
that he could not hire me

313
00:18:57,220 --> 00:19:02,039
because I had scored
a red on the test

314
00:19:02,059 --> 00:19:05,200
and red on a specific area
of the test.

315
00:19:05,220 --> 00:19:08,180
In the specific area
which I scored red

316
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:15,039
indicated that I was very
likely to ignore customers

317
00:19:15,059 --> 00:19:17,210
if they were either upset,

318
00:19:17,230 --> 00:19:21,210
or if they were making me
upset and frustrated.

319
00:19:21,230 --> 00:19:26,069
And so I heard this news
and I was a little taken aback

320
00:19:26,089 --> 00:19:31,200
because, you know, I've worked
in customer service before

321
00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:34,150
and one of the things
I've learned is

322
00:19:34,170 --> 00:19:36,160
you completely separate
your personal feelings

323
00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:39,089
from the job.

324
00:19:39,109 --> 00:19:42,049
It's not fair
that by answering honestly

325
00:19:42,069 --> 00:19:47,160
about things that were related
to my mental health,

326
00:19:47,180 --> 00:19:49,130
I was excluded from work.

327
00:19:49,150 --> 00:19:53,009
So, in my head I'm thinking,
there's no way

328
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:55,089
that this can be legal.

329
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,150
I've been an advocate
for disability rights

330
00:20:00,170 --> 00:20:02,200
and disability justice
for over the last decade,

331
00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:05,130
and when I was in high school

332
00:20:05,150 --> 00:20:07,000
I had decided to apply
to several other jobs.

333
00:20:07,019 --> 00:20:10,190
Several of these places
that I applied

334
00:20:10,210 --> 00:20:13,019
had a personality test
as part of the application.

335
00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:15,069
I just remember that
because one of the times

336
00:20:15,089 --> 00:20:18,019
that I was filling one out,
I was with some classmates.

337
00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:20,029
We all crowded around the screen
as a group to be like

338
00:20:20,049 --> 00:20:22,029
"This is a personality test?"
"What the hell!"

339
00:20:22,049 --> 00:20:24,109
"How are you supposed
to answer these questions?"

340
00:20:24,130 --> 00:20:26,029
"What is the correct answer
supposed to be?"

341
00:20:26,049 --> 00:20:28,079
"Does anyone know,
What should we put down?"

342
00:20:28,099 --> 00:20:29,059
"Does it matter?"

343
00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:31,019
I don't remember
what the verdict was,

344
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:32,049
but I do remember

345
00:20:32,069 --> 00:20:34,160
that I didn't get
a single job that I applied for.

346
00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:35,230
And to this day,
I don't know why.

347
00:20:36,009 --> 00:20:38,009
I have a lot of suspicions
as to why.

348
00:20:38,029 --> 00:20:39,029
Perhaps one of the reasons
that I was not hired was

349
00:20:39,049 --> 00:20:41,190
because I failed
the personality test,

350
00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:43,039
or perhaps one of the reasons
that I was not hired

351
00:20:43,059 --> 00:20:46,109
was that even if people
didn't know affirmatively

352
00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:49,059
that I'm autistic,
I still coded,

353
00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:50,220
I was perceived
as you're kind of weird

354
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,170
we can tell something's
going on,

355
00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:55,069
so we don't really want you,

356
00:20:55,089 --> 00:20:56,160
you're not a good fit.

357
00:20:56,180 --> 00:20:58,170
That phrase that's supposed
to mean

358
00:20:58,190 --> 00:21:00,069
maybe like this won't work
out in particular.

359
00:21:00,089 --> 00:21:04,200
But really is usually code for
you're too Asian,

360
00:21:04,220 --> 00:21:07,190
you're too disabled,
you're too gay.

361
00:21:07,210 --> 00:21:10,089
So for me, when people say

362
00:21:10,109 --> 00:21:11,089
what's used personality tests
to learn

363
00:21:11,109 --> 00:21:13,230
about who would be
a better partner for you,

364
00:21:14,009 --> 00:21:15,230
or who would be
a better student for the school,

365
00:21:16,009 --> 00:21:17,039
or who would be the
best employee for this position.

366
00:21:17,059 --> 00:21:20,069
My instant reaction is,
oh no, fuck that, no.

367
00:21:22,210 --> 00:21:24,079
It's not just a prediction.

368
00:21:24,099 --> 00:21:26,039
If it were just a prediction,
it wouldn't be that important.

369
00:21:26,059 --> 00:21:28,220
But it's a prediction
that's being used

370
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,099
to make decisions about who is
worthy and who's unworthy.

371
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:33,190
We need to know what's going on.

372
00:21:33,210 --> 00:21:35,069
We need to stop trusting it.

373
00:21:35,089 --> 00:21:36,170
We need to look into it.

374
00:21:36,190 --> 00:21:38,160
See what is it really doing?

375
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,230
I can only indirectly infer
because I know a lot about this,

376
00:21:45,009 --> 00:21:46,039
but I imagine that
there's just so many

377
00:21:46,059 --> 00:21:49,170
hundreds and thousands of other
people that have been harmed

378
00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:50,069
that just don't know it, yet.

379
00:21:56,069 --> 00:21:57,069
I tell you all the time

380
00:21:57,089 --> 00:21:58,170
that it's survival
of the fittest, isn't it?

381
00:21:58,190 --> 00:22:01,000
[students] Yes.

382
00:22:01,019 --> 00:22:02,049
Cos there's a million people
in New York

383
00:22:02,069 --> 00:22:05,089
fighting, scratching,
fighting for these jobs.

384
00:22:05,109 --> 00:22:08,079
And a lot of employers are just
looking for one mistake.

385
00:22:08,099 --> 00:22:11,210
-We got to be mistake free.
-[students] Yes.

386
00:22:11,230 --> 00:22:13,200
I think a lot of people
of our community

387
00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:17,210
are not afforded many mistakes
as other people, right?

388
00:22:17,230 --> 00:22:19,009
We have to go to extremes
to show them,

389
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:20,049
"I am the best candidate,"

390
00:22:20,069 --> 00:22:22,180
because in a lot
of people's minds,

391
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,059
I hate to say unfortunately,

392
00:22:24,079 --> 00:22:26,059
they have an L on your forehead
as soon as you come in.

393
00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:29,000
We're going to show them
what's really what?

394
00:22:29,019 --> 00:22:31,079
-[all] W.
-W for winner.

395
00:22:31,099 --> 00:22:32,170
And that's why we got...

396
00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:34,170
For over a decade now, my
job has been

397
00:22:34,190 --> 00:22:37,109
to help New Yorkers
find employment.

398
00:22:37,130 --> 00:22:40,130
I service different students
from different populations.

399
00:22:40,150 --> 00:22:42,190
Some are long term out of work.

400
00:22:42,210 --> 00:22:43,210
Some are freshly incarcerated.

401
00:22:43,230 --> 00:22:45,210
But you'll be surprised,
some have master's degrees

402
00:22:45,230 --> 00:22:47,049
and still can't find work.

403
00:22:47,069 --> 00:22:49,170
You apply for
that doorman job?

404
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:51,140
-Yeah.
-Right, that's a good job.

405
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,160
Many students aren't aware

406
00:22:53,180 --> 00:22:55,190
of how technology plays
an important part

407
00:22:55,210 --> 00:22:57,130
in this job process.

408
00:22:57,150 --> 00:23:00,220
A lot of my students are still
used to the one ads

409
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,049
in the Sunday paper
and thinking,

410
00:23:02,069 --> 00:23:05,039
"Oh, I see a job opening.
I'm going to walk

411
00:23:05,059 --> 00:23:07,069
to that physical brick
and mortar store

412
00:23:07,089 --> 00:23:09,049
and I'm going
to apply in person."

413
00:23:09,069 --> 00:23:11,230
When those days are dead
as the dinosaurs.

414
00:23:13,150 --> 00:23:15,200
When I was in prison,

415
00:23:15,220 --> 00:23:19,019
I was working
with computers that...

416
00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:23,009
the software was in the 1980s.

417
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:26,220
So being introduced
to the Google world now is like

418
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,069
what's the Google world?

419
00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:31,210
A couple of years ago,

420
00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:33,069
we started to see
that job applications

421
00:23:33,089 --> 00:23:36,099
started to become
longer and longer.

422
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,210
When we looked at them closer
the questions in the application

423
00:23:39,230 --> 00:23:40,140
were not actually about the job.

424
00:23:42,220 --> 00:23:44,029
These are questions
about who you are.

425
00:23:44,049 --> 00:23:48,109
Psychological evaluations.

426
00:23:48,130 --> 00:23:51,089
Tends to dislike a person who
has sold his payment forcefully?

427
00:23:52,170 --> 00:23:53,099
[sighs]

428
00:23:55,049 --> 00:23:57,069
Daily, I see frustration.

429
00:23:57,089 --> 00:23:59,019
These students,
they are filling out tens,

430
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:01,069
maybe hundreds of applications.

431
00:24:01,089 --> 00:24:03,039
A lot of times,
my students will tell me,

432
00:24:03,059 --> 00:24:05,190
"Oh, Mr E. I applied to this job

433
00:24:05,210 --> 00:24:08,170
and I never heard
anything back."

434
00:24:08,190 --> 00:24:11,150
It really sinks my heart
because I've seen them trained,

435
00:24:11,170 --> 00:24:13,000
I've seen them wake up early,

436
00:24:13,019 --> 00:24:15,069
I've seen them
get into a whole new routine

437
00:24:15,089 --> 00:24:17,140
and I've seen them
get to the edge of,

438
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,230
"Is this even worth it?"

439
00:24:22,099 --> 00:24:25,000
So me and my colleague David
decided

440
00:24:25,019 --> 00:24:26,049
we needed to do
something about this

441
00:24:26,069 --> 00:24:27,119
in order to give
our guys a chance

442
00:24:30,109 --> 00:24:31,150
I often say
"Is this a psych test?"

443
00:24:31,170 --> 00:24:35,059
And they would often say,
"That's what it feels like."

444
00:24:35,079 --> 00:24:36,140
And so that's where they go.

445
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:43,059
And so the personality profile
is designed to distract you.

446
00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:46,049
It's designed to bring you
into the personal,

447
00:24:46,069 --> 00:24:48,000
because what are
they trying to do?

448
00:24:48,019 --> 00:24:50,069
They're trying
to filter people out.

449
00:24:52,029 --> 00:24:53,210
Once you hit "apply now",
you're in,

450
00:24:53,230 --> 00:24:56,009
you're committed,

451
00:24:56,029 --> 00:24:57,039
now what?

452
00:24:57,059 --> 00:24:59,039
You might be there
for two hours.

453
00:24:59,059 --> 00:25:01,089
So when they give you
these questionnaires

454
00:25:01,109 --> 00:25:04,150
psychologically
how it messes with me,

455
00:25:04,170 --> 00:25:09,089
is sometimes it, it finds
a way to try to trick you.

456
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,009
[rumbling machine]

457
00:25:22,099 --> 00:25:23,099
Whereas Katharine was

458
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,150
the more spiritual partner
of the two

459
00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:31,170
Isabel was the more commercial,
the more entrepreneurial.

460
00:25:33,150 --> 00:25:37,130
I think this had a lot to do
with her own personality.

461
00:25:40,099 --> 00:25:44,059
She was a woman
who had started her life

462
00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:47,180
as her mother's experiment.

463
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,059
And once she had broken free
from her mother.

464
00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:51,059
she seemed to have
no real interest

465
00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:54,049
in her mother's obsession.

466
00:25:57,019 --> 00:25:58,130
But then World War II
comes along

467
00:25:58,150 --> 00:26:01,170
and that changes
everything for her.

468
00:26:01,190 --> 00:26:03,019
[thunderous explosion]

469
00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:08,119
December 7th 1941,

470
00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:13,170
a date which will live
in infamy.

471
00:26:15,170 --> 00:26:17,099
The United States of America

472
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:22,109
was suddenly
and deliberately attacked.

473
00:26:22,130 --> 00:26:26,220
She says that, you know,
she was sitting at home

474
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,079
and she thought,
"Well, what is it that I can do

475
00:26:28,099 --> 00:26:31,099
that would be helpful
to humankind?"

476
00:26:32,150 --> 00:26:35,029
[Carl Jung]
We need more understanding

477
00:26:35,049 --> 00:26:36,230
of human nature

478
00:26:37,009 --> 00:26:41,170
because the only real danger
that exists... is man himself.

479
00:26:43,049 --> 00:26:44,059
"What if I took
all of this knowledge,

480
00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:46,079
that my mother
has been sitting on

481
00:26:46,099 --> 00:26:48,220
and I somehow
operationalized it?"

482
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,119
"What if I made it
immediately usable for people?"

483
00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:53,140
[interview with Katharine Myers]

484
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:06,079
So she gets her daughter

485
00:27:06,099 --> 00:27:08,000
and her daughter's
three best friends

486
00:27:08,019 --> 00:27:09,109
to come to the house
after school

487
00:27:09,130 --> 00:27:10,200
and to sit around
the kitchen table.

488
00:27:10,220 --> 00:27:14,039
And she gets them to answer
these forced choice questions

489
00:27:14,059 --> 00:27:15,140
about how they would behave

490
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,000
in all sorts of different
and ordinary scenarios.

491
00:27:18,019 --> 00:27:19,160
So, for instance,
if you were at a party

492
00:27:19,180 --> 00:27:22,029
would you wait for somebody
to talk to you

493
00:27:22,049 --> 00:27:24,140
or would you approach
somebody to talk to them first?

494
00:27:27,109 --> 00:27:28,079
Or if you were walking down
the street

495
00:27:28,099 --> 00:27:30,140
and the fire truck
blazed by you

496
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,160
would you follow it
to see where it was going

497
00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:35,170
or would you just keep going
about your day?

498
00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:43,190
And using her children
and their friends

499
00:27:43,210 --> 00:27:46,000
and her husband's answers
to these questions

500
00:27:46,019 --> 00:27:49,170
she started building up
these profiles of people

501
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:50,180
who were different types.

502
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:56,130
[Katharine Myers]

503
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:04,029
Many many many people find
the language of type

504
00:28:04,049 --> 00:28:07,009
that Myers-Briggs offers
extraordinarily seductive.

505
00:28:07,029 --> 00:28:10,049
And I think for me
the interesting question is

506
00:28:10,069 --> 00:28:12,009
why are they so seduced by it?

507
00:28:12,029 --> 00:28:14,150
[Myers voice]

508
00:28:25,230 --> 00:28:27,130
What is it about these words

509
00:28:27,150 --> 00:28:29,130
and the way in which
they're grouped together

510
00:28:29,150 --> 00:28:31,160
that really commands
people's imagination?

511
00:28:34,079 --> 00:28:34,200
[Myers voice]

512
00:28:46,099 --> 00:28:49,150
And why is it that the moment
they have access to those words

513
00:28:49,170 --> 00:28:50,220
they actually start using them

514
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,210
not just to describe
their personalities

515
00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:57,009
but to kind of re-conceive
the idea of personality itself.

516
00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:59,059
[Myers voice]

517
00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:13,069
And the most powerful rule
of type is that you were born

518
00:29:13,089 --> 00:29:14,230
with essential personality type

519
00:29:15,009 --> 00:29:18,039
and you would die with that
same essential personality type.

520
00:29:25,049 --> 00:29:28,069
The most important part
of personality,

521
00:29:28,089 --> 00:29:29,150
the North and South of it all,

522
00:29:29,170 --> 00:29:31,180
is the introvert-extrovert
spectrum.

523
00:29:34,150 --> 00:29:35,210
-Hi, how are you?
-I'm good.

524
00:29:35,230 --> 00:29:40,200
One really easy way to ask
yourself who you are

525
00:29:40,220 --> 00:29:46,089
is to think about how you feel
when you go to a party

526
00:29:46,109 --> 00:29:50,009
that you're truly enjoying,
with company that you truly like

527
00:29:50,029 --> 00:29:52,200
and think about how you feel
after about two or three hours.

528
00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:56,039
Because if you're an extrovert,
it's as if you have

529
00:29:56,059 --> 00:29:58,190
an internal battery
that's being charged.

530
00:29:58,210 --> 00:30:00,000
Check me out, ladies

531
00:30:00,019 --> 00:30:02,109
your boy is
under the fake mistletoe.

532
00:30:02,130 --> 00:30:03,180
And if you're an introvert

533
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,119
no matter how socially skilled
you might be

534
00:30:06,140 --> 00:30:08,000
or how much
you're enjoying it,

535
00:30:08,019 --> 00:30:09,200
it's as if your battery
is being drained.

536
00:30:09,220 --> 00:30:14,200
What? No, I wasn't going off
to be by myself again.

537
00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:19,119
I was just checking out
your laundry room, yeah

538
00:30:19,140 --> 00:30:23,069
American culture really
does prefer it's extroverts.

539
00:30:23,089 --> 00:30:25,230
This is a culture
that comes from a kind

540
00:30:26,009 --> 00:30:28,130
of veneration
of the man of action.

541
00:30:28,150 --> 00:30:30,119
You should be the doer,
not the thinker.

542
00:30:30,140 --> 00:30:34,049
You often hear a preference
for hiring of extroverts.

543
00:30:34,069 --> 00:30:36,140
Increasingly now
offices are designed

544
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,150
as these big
open social spaces.

545
00:30:39,170 --> 00:30:42,009
Do you have
any questions for us?

546
00:30:42,029 --> 00:30:43,089
Hey, forget the questions.

547
00:30:43,109 --> 00:30:46,140
I brought brownies.
Let's just dig in.

548
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:47,180
Also I was wondering

549
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,089
do you have a kombucha bar
for employees?

550
00:30:50,109 --> 00:30:53,039
We also know that introverts
tend to get passed over

551
00:30:53,059 --> 00:30:55,019
and overlooked
for leadership positions.

552
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:59,049
So it's like there's
this colossal waste of talent,

553
00:30:59,069 --> 00:31:01,140
because of these preconceptions
we have.

554
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,019
My message to fellow
introverts in the world is

555
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:08,079
to love being the way you are,

556
00:31:08,099 --> 00:31:09,210
there's a lot to love.

557
00:31:12,069 --> 00:31:17,029
I'm applying for more jobs
and I'm finding more and more

558
00:31:17,049 --> 00:31:20,079
of these personality tests.

559
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,119
I'm very outgoing.

560
00:31:25,130 --> 00:31:30,019
I am generally hopeful
and optimistic person.

561
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,019
And this is one
that I see a lot,

562
00:31:34,039 --> 00:31:38,220
how would you describe
your personal energy level?

563
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,029
If you're someone
who's suffering from depression

564
00:31:43,049 --> 00:31:45,180
if you're being honest,
you're going to say

565
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,220
I have less energy
than most people

566
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,049
that's part
of what the illness is.

567
00:31:51,069 --> 00:31:55,039
But that's the type of person
who is also forcing themselves

568
00:31:55,059 --> 00:31:57,130
to get out there and do things.

569
00:31:59,109 --> 00:32:01,029
While I'm doing this
and finding that out

570
00:32:01,049 --> 00:32:04,049
my dad is doing
all this research

571
00:32:04,069 --> 00:32:06,160
because he's sort
of the type of dad

572
00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:09,009
that obsesses over things.

573
00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:15,140
We started with just Kyle
applying to additional companies

574
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,230
and when he applied
for him to take screenshots

575
00:32:18,009 --> 00:32:19,210
of the questions that
were asked.

576
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,089
When we were
looking back at screenshots

577
00:32:23,109 --> 00:32:28,000
we realized that you were being
sent to other websites.

578
00:32:30,019 --> 00:32:32,069
When you go one level deeper

579
00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:37,190
you get
to third party test providers.

580
00:32:37,210 --> 00:32:40,150
The second part of that was then
to sort of take those names

581
00:32:40,170 --> 00:32:42,170
people I'd never heard before,

582
00:32:42,190 --> 00:32:45,210
Unicru or Kronos or some others,

583
00:32:45,230 --> 00:32:49,029
and just start
doing research on them.

584
00:32:49,049 --> 00:32:50,160
This goes deeper
than we thought.

585
00:32:50,180 --> 00:32:53,230
There's a whole
industry of companies.

586
00:32:54,009 --> 00:32:56,220
They've infected
the whole system.

587
00:33:00,150 --> 00:33:03,140
-[dog barks]
-[birds chirping]

588
00:33:06,180 --> 00:33:09,069
[Isabel's granddaughter]
We all, of course, knew type

589
00:33:09,089 --> 00:33:12,160
of everyone in the family
and we all took the indicator

590
00:33:12,180 --> 00:33:14,079
at an early age.

591
00:33:14,099 --> 00:33:16,180
My grandmother was introverted
and my great grandmother was

592
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,089
introverted and my mother
was introverted.

593
00:33:20,109 --> 00:33:22,000
So at first,
I was a little concerned

594
00:33:22,019 --> 00:33:23,099
because I was extroverted

595
00:33:23,119 --> 00:33:24,210
but she was very reassuring.

596
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:25,190
And when I went
over the type description,

597
00:33:25,210 --> 00:33:27,230
I really liked
my own type description

598
00:33:28,009 --> 00:33:32,099
which was extroverted, intuitive
feeling with perception.

599
00:33:32,119 --> 00:33:35,170
I knew I wanted to be a reporter
and she had done massive amounts

600
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:39,130
of research on type and career
and when I looked at the careers

601
00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:44,049
of reporters, there was a great
concentration of ENFPs

602
00:33:44,069 --> 00:33:46,160
so, I felt like
I had made the right choice.

603
00:33:49,130 --> 00:33:52,210
What I remember about her is
that she spent most of her life

604
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:55,190
in a big overstuffed chair in
the corner of a living room

605
00:33:55,210 --> 00:34:00,019
where she worked,
pretty much around the clock

606
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:01,089
on type research.

607
00:34:08,130 --> 00:34:12,039
She had long gray hair
which she braided every morning

608
00:34:12,059 --> 00:34:13,219
and put in
a very complicated bun

609
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,219
that really used
to fascinate me.

610
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,179
She was not
remotely materialistic.

611
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,059
I never saw her shop.

612
00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:22,039
I don't know
where the clothes came from

613
00:34:22,059 --> 00:34:24,070
or where
the furniture came from

614
00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:28,130
but it was a very warm house.

615
00:34:28,150 --> 00:34:30,170
She would come up
and sing every night

616
00:34:30,190 --> 00:34:32,099
before we went to sleep.

617
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:38,059
She made a cinnamon sugar
toast in the morning.

618
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:40,139
She had a special way
of making scrambled eggs.

619
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:45,170
She was always very much driven,

620
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:48,039
and sometimes even watching her
make scrambled eggs

621
00:34:48,059 --> 00:34:50,079
she was kind of like
rocking back and forth,

622
00:34:50,099 --> 00:34:52,190
and then she was gonna get back
to her desk.

623
00:34:57,150 --> 00:34:59,070
She would say that her dad
always said

624
00:34:59,090 --> 00:35:00,059
that if a child asks you
a question,

625
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:02,179
no matter how many
questions they ask you

626
00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:05,090
you have to answer
their questions right away.

627
00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:08,110
So I think all of us
grandchildren knew

628
00:35:08,130 --> 00:35:10,099
that the one way
we could get her attention

629
00:35:10,119 --> 00:35:11,199
is if we'd ask her questions
and then she would,

630
00:35:11,219 --> 00:35:14,099
she'd stop whatever
she was doing

631
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:17,010
and she would patiently
answer our questions.

632
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:21,030
I think she really felt
that if you could help people

633
00:35:21,050 --> 00:35:22,210
understand themselves better

634
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:27,000
and ways
that other people are different

635
00:35:27,019 --> 00:35:28,210
that were not better or worse,

636
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:30,030
that would be a better way

637
00:35:30,050 --> 00:35:32,079
of creating empathy
towards others.

638
00:35:35,059 --> 00:35:37,110
[Myers' voice]

639
00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:48,199
She believes that what type
can do is help manage

640
00:35:48,219 --> 00:35:52,179
the now growing labor force
of the US.

641
00:35:54,099 --> 00:35:56,000
She says
"If men came like shoes,

642
00:35:56,019 --> 00:35:59,170
with the number
on the outside of the box

643
00:35:59,190 --> 00:36:02,139
then we could avoid
a painful fit."

644
00:36:09,050 --> 00:36:12,070
It's about the idea
that working at something

645
00:36:12,090 --> 00:36:13,190
that's not good for you,

646
00:36:13,210 --> 00:36:16,059
pursuing a profession
that you're not suited to,

647
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:18,000
and even marrying a person

648
00:36:18,019 --> 00:36:19,210
who is not suited
to your personality type

649
00:36:19,230 --> 00:36:23,019
results in a great deal of pain.

650
00:36:26,199 --> 00:36:31,010
And so she's very interested
in trying to mitigate the pain

651
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:33,110
that these bad fits of people
to their social roles

652
00:36:33,130 --> 00:36:35,210
might cause.

653
00:36:38,010 --> 00:36:40,090
And so
it really started out small.

654
00:36:40,110 --> 00:36:44,170
Initially, when you look at
the register of her accounts

655
00:36:44,190 --> 00:36:47,010
she was selling a couple
of booklets here,

656
00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:48,130
a couple
of questionnaires there.

657
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:50,219
But then these accounts
really through the 50s

658
00:36:51,010 --> 00:36:52,039
start to grow
and grow and grow.

659
00:36:55,070 --> 00:36:58,150
Some of her biggest clients
were places like Standard Oil

660
00:36:58,170 --> 00:37:01,159
or GE or the Home Life
Insurance Company.

661
00:37:01,179 --> 00:37:03,059
And they were really intent

662
00:37:03,079 --> 00:37:05,139
on having her test
their executives

663
00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:08,030
to figure out
what made a good executive.

664
00:37:10,090 --> 00:37:11,139
There were companies
like the

665
00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:12,099
Washington Gas
and Light Company

666
00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:14,130
that had her come in
to figure out

667
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:15,219
whether extroverts or introverts

668
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,099
were better at meter reading
versus clerical work.

669
00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:23,079
She was being asked
by hospitals

670
00:37:23,099 --> 00:37:27,090
to come in and type
their nurses,

671
00:37:27,110 --> 00:37:29,019
to type their stenographers,

672
00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:30,199
to try to figure out
what types were best

673
00:37:30,219 --> 00:37:33,190
for particular kinds of jobs.

674
00:37:37,050 --> 00:37:40,059
For Isabel, it was about
imagining a better world.

675
00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:46,179
A world in which everybody
was doing the thing

676
00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:48,199
that made them happy.

677
00:38:05,210 --> 00:38:07,050
One of the criticisms
of the MBTI

678
00:38:07,070 --> 00:38:09,079
is that it's all positive,
makes people feel good.

679
00:38:09,099 --> 00:38:13,130
I don't know why it's a problem
but she purposely didn't include

680
00:38:13,150 --> 00:38:15,019
some of those negative things.

681
00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:17,019
Her whole point was,
look, all types have value

682
00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:19,179
all types are good,
we just approach

683
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:21,019
the world in different ways.

684
00:38:21,039 --> 00:38:21,219
At the end of the day
people find it useful,

685
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,199
they find it very valuable.

686
00:38:23,219 --> 00:38:26,079
Even if it's not
a perfect model.

687
00:38:26,099 --> 00:38:29,019
There's no personality model
that captures every element

688
00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:32,150
of a human condition,
they just don't.

689
00:38:32,170 --> 00:38:34,210
They're models,
that's what they're for, right?

690
00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:38,050
To help us simplify
the complex world we live in.

691
00:38:38,070 --> 00:38:40,199
We know that about 80
of the Fortune 100

692
00:38:40,219 --> 00:38:43,000
make use of the MBTI
in some form or fashion

693
00:38:43,019 --> 00:38:45,130
from Ivy League schools
down to community colleges

694
00:38:45,150 --> 00:38:46,219
in the US use it.

695
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,230
We know that most
of the branches of the military

696
00:38:49,010 --> 00:38:51,079
in the US and in England use it.

697
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:07,130
To me that's what's so
extraordinary about type.

698
00:39:07,150 --> 00:39:11,039
It's not the question of whether
it's scientifically valid

699
00:39:11,059 --> 00:39:14,139
or reliable or not but rather
how it is that these two women

700
00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:19,090
manage to create a language
that would latch on to you

701
00:39:19,110 --> 00:39:21,090
and just never,
ever ever let you go.

702
00:39:21,110 --> 00:39:24,090
A language you would never
be able to shake loose.

703
00:39:24,110 --> 00:39:26,050
Since I've been
in the Myers-Briggs company

704
00:39:26,070 --> 00:39:28,050
the admonition has been
to not use it for hiring

705
00:39:28,070 --> 00:39:29,090
because
there's no reason to assume

706
00:39:29,110 --> 00:39:32,130
that a person with one
particular type preference

707
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:35,130
can do a job better than someone
who has a different type.

708
00:39:35,150 --> 00:39:38,059
We had a couple of organizations
that we're using it for hiring.

709
00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:39,230
We knew
they were using for hiring.

710
00:39:40,010 --> 00:39:41,030
We called them and say,
hey you can't do that

711
00:39:41,050 --> 00:39:43,219
and they said,
"Well we're going to,"

712
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,039
and so we stopped
selling to them.

713
00:39:46,059 --> 00:39:48,210
In the United States
copyright laws are particularly

714
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:50,130
challenging to enforce.

715
00:39:52,110 --> 00:39:54,059
The four letters
were never copyrighted.

716
00:39:54,079 --> 00:39:56,179
Terrible mistake
by some lawyers somewhere.

717
00:39:56,199 --> 00:39:58,059
So they are in the public domain

718
00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:00,130
and anybody can use
those combinations of letters.

719
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:09,099
Many of these personality tests
have now been copied, reworked,

720
00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:13,210
reformatted, reformulated,
so it's hard to even know

721
00:40:13,230 --> 00:40:15,139
where they are
or where they come from.

722
00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:19,019
There's been not a big increase
in the number of competitors,

723
00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:21,190
as we call them knock-offs
of the MBTI.

724
00:40:21,210 --> 00:40:24,070
One of our biggest challenge is
that there's people out there

725
00:40:24,090 --> 00:40:26,050
who say they're doing MBTI
and they're not.

726
00:40:26,070 --> 00:40:28,210
Or who say they're using
our products

727
00:40:28,230 --> 00:40:30,090
and they're not using
our products.

728
00:40:33,079 --> 00:40:36,019
The creators of the Myers-Briggs
may have had a vision

729
00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:37,179
of simply helping people
understand themselves

730
00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:40,000
and one another.

731
00:40:40,019 --> 00:40:41,019
But now that the genie
is out of the bottle

732
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:43,079
they can't necessarily control

733
00:40:43,099 --> 00:40:46,019
how it's being used
and by whom.

734
00:40:46,210 --> 00:40:48,210
Just like
pharmaceutical companies

735
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:51,090
sometimes get in trouble
for off label use

736
00:40:51,110 --> 00:40:52,159
of pharmaceutical drugs

737
00:40:56,130 --> 00:40:59,070
for an off label use
to select people into jobs

738
00:40:59,090 --> 00:41:00,090
when they shouldn't be
doing that.

739
00:41:03,099 --> 00:41:07,039
My job, of course,
was to find evidence of harm.

740
00:41:07,059 --> 00:41:09,179
Show me the blood, right?

741
00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:13,079
Well, how do you find blood
when they're these algorithms

742
00:41:13,099 --> 00:41:17,159
that are secretly
harming people?

743
00:41:17,179 --> 00:41:19,079
Most people who get red-lighted

744
00:41:19,099 --> 00:41:22,000
with personality tests never
find out they get red-lighted.

745
00:41:22,019 --> 00:41:24,090
But Kyle knew somebody,

746
00:41:24,110 --> 00:41:26,110
who told him,
"You got red-lighted."

747
00:41:26,130 --> 00:41:30,119
So that was
the first miracle for Kyle.

748
00:41:30,139 --> 00:41:35,019
The second thing is
that his father is a lawyer.

749
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:37,010
Kyle said, "I don't know
what to do, dad."

750
00:41:37,030 --> 00:41:38,099
He asked, "How broken am I?"

751
00:41:40,079 --> 00:41:43,010
-[tense music]
-[soft emotional breath]

752
00:41:45,110 --> 00:41:46,230
And...

753
00:41:47,010 --> 00:41:50,030
that statement really...

754
00:41:51,099 --> 00:41:51,119
...hurt.

755
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,170
Can we afford to slip
in this room?

756
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:56,059
-[all] No.
-No, we can't.

757
00:41:56,079 --> 00:41:58,050
That's the problem.

758
00:41:58,070 --> 00:41:59,000
Because these things
will add up quickly.

759
00:41:59,019 --> 00:42:00,070
We're all human beings

760
00:42:00,090 --> 00:42:02,150
but there's
a computer behind this

761
00:42:02,170 --> 00:42:05,190
and it adds it up
super fast in nanoseconds

762
00:42:05,210 --> 00:42:07,050
and if you have too much wing
in the wrong category

763
00:42:07,070 --> 00:42:10,059
you are out of the running.

764
00:42:11,019 --> 00:42:13,090
Between 2012 and 2014,

765
00:42:13,110 --> 00:42:17,210
I was doing
a very in-depth two year project

766
00:42:17,230 --> 00:42:19,210
where we looked at
online job applications

767
00:42:19,230 --> 00:42:23,119
from every aspect.

768
00:42:23,139 --> 00:42:27,150
We found that a company
named Unicru was marketing

769
00:42:27,170 --> 00:42:30,179
most of these tests
to each company

770
00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:35,039
as being uniquely suited
to identify the workers

771
00:42:35,059 --> 00:42:37,079
that that company wanted.

772
00:42:37,099 --> 00:42:41,059
So, presumably
every company wouldn't want

773
00:42:41,079 --> 00:42:42,139
the same type of person

774
00:42:42,159 --> 00:42:44,139
because they're different
kinds of companies

775
00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:46,179
and they're different
kinds of jobs.

776
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:54,050
Every single test we looked at
evaluated mental state.

777
00:42:54,070 --> 00:42:56,099
And I would say
a good third of the questions

778
00:42:56,119 --> 00:42:59,199
actually evaluated mental
states of applicants.

779
00:43:01,190 --> 00:43:05,059
And it's unfair
and wrong to not hire someone

780
00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:07,170
based on a mental disability.

781
00:43:08,059 --> 00:43:10,219
You can screen them out

782
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,079
if you are unable to make
an accommodation to them

783
00:43:14,099 --> 00:43:18,079
after you've already hired them.

784
00:43:18,099 --> 00:43:22,039
But you can't pre-screen
and disqualify somebody

785
00:43:22,059 --> 00:43:23,139
based on a perceived disability.

786
00:43:26,170 --> 00:43:30,170
Every one of the tests
was administered nationwide.

787
00:43:30,190 --> 00:43:34,170
You went on a national website
to take this test.

788
00:43:34,190 --> 00:43:37,010
These were not
New York City employers.

789
00:43:37,030 --> 00:43:43,059
We're talking about Macy's,
Dunkin' Donuts, McDonald's...

790
00:43:43,079 --> 00:43:48,179
and they all had some variant
of this inappropriate test.

791
00:43:52,139 --> 00:43:56,199
They don't really understand
personality testing.

792
00:43:56,219 --> 00:43:58,139
They don't understand
what they're dealing with

793
00:43:58,159 --> 00:44:02,070
and you have vendors
who are telling them

794
00:44:02,090 --> 00:44:05,110
this is going to save you
oodles of bucks.

795
00:44:05,130 --> 00:44:08,000
It sounds like the magic bullet.

796
00:44:08,019 --> 00:44:12,039
It's a process by which
technologists hide ugly truths

797
00:44:12,059 --> 00:44:14,170
inside blackbox algorithms
and called them objective.

798
00:44:16,099 --> 00:44:18,099
Call them meritocratic.

799
00:44:20,019 --> 00:44:22,110
When they're secret,
important and destructive

800
00:44:22,130 --> 00:44:25,059
I coined a term
for these algorithms,

801
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:27,119
weapons of mass destruction.

802
00:44:27,139 --> 00:44:30,130
[audience applauds and cheers]

803
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:38,159
That's when you realized,
it's not just me,

804
00:44:38,179 --> 00:44:40,159
it's not just Kyle,

805
00:44:40,179 --> 00:44:42,159
it's much broader than that.

806
00:44:42,179 --> 00:44:46,119
And that led us to talk
with people

807
00:44:46,139 --> 00:44:49,170
who are more qualified lawyers

808
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:52,210
and then turn that
hopefully into change.

809
00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:57,170
The concern I have is
that people seem okay

810
00:44:57,190 --> 00:45:00,230
with kind of innovating
and testing out things

811
00:45:01,010 --> 00:45:04,170
where there isn't a lot
of scientific support

812
00:45:04,190 --> 00:45:06,050
to really document
that it works.

813
00:45:06,070 --> 00:45:07,130
Whereas you wouldn't do that

814
00:45:07,150 --> 00:45:10,070
if you were testing out
a new drug, right?

815
00:45:10,090 --> 00:45:13,179
You would actually develop
the science to support it.

816
00:45:13,199 --> 00:45:16,179
Somehow people think
this is like a low risk area.

817
00:45:16,199 --> 00:45:19,079
So let's just test
on all these humans

818
00:45:19,099 --> 00:45:22,039
before we know exactly
what the consequences are.

819
00:45:22,059 --> 00:45:23,090
What came to my mind
is job applicants

820
00:45:23,110 --> 00:45:25,199
are crash test dummies, right?

821
00:45:25,219 --> 00:45:28,159
Because we don't know
if it's going to work, but...

822
00:45:30,150 --> 00:45:31,139
how could it hurt?

823
00:45:31,159 --> 00:45:33,079
But unlike
the crash test dummies

824
00:45:33,099 --> 00:45:36,130
the people are there like
the dummies don't have feelings.

825
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:39,119
The crash test dummy
does not have

826
00:45:39,139 --> 00:45:41,059
economic survival needs
or feelings.

827
00:45:41,079 --> 00:45:42,110
Correct.

828
00:45:42,130 --> 00:45:47,050
Personality tests are by a
large constructed to be ableist,

829
00:45:47,070 --> 00:45:50,139
to be racist, to be sexist
and to be classist.

830
00:45:50,159 --> 00:45:52,219
That's what happens
when you have a test

831
00:45:53,010 --> 00:45:55,199
that decides whether you're
friendly or not based on norms

832
00:45:55,219 --> 00:45:58,199
devised from college educated
straight white men

833
00:45:58,219 --> 00:46:01,000
who don't have
any known disabilities.

834
00:46:01,019 --> 00:46:05,219
Personality tests are useful
for individual people

835
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,070
sometimes on journeys
of self discovery.

836
00:46:08,090 --> 00:46:10,000
But when they're used
to make decisions

837
00:46:10,019 --> 00:46:12,139
by other people,
affecting somebody's life,

838
00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:15,070
they become dangerous tools.

839
00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:18,170
My dad was just
pushing forward with this

840
00:46:18,190 --> 00:46:21,179
and we started getting
some more publicity.

841
00:46:21,199 --> 00:46:24,130
There was
a Wall Street Journal article

842
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:26,079
that was written about
us.

843
00:46:26,099 --> 00:46:29,210
Being on the Wall Street Journal
cover page, this is important.

844
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:33,039
Kyle is having an impact.

845
00:46:34,219 --> 00:46:37,210
And so now he's obsessed
with this idea.

846
00:46:37,230 --> 00:46:40,099
And he keeps digging,
and he keeps talking to people

847
00:46:40,119 --> 00:46:43,139
and he would go with third
party like test providers

848
00:46:43,159 --> 00:46:46,079
and ask
how they made their tests.

849
00:46:46,099 --> 00:46:49,039
We found that many of them
used something called

850
00:46:49,059 --> 00:46:51,219
the five factor model
of personality.

851
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:59,210
They look at five major factors
in the context of hiring.

852
00:46:59,230 --> 00:47:02,119
The way the Big Five theory
developed was over decades.

853
00:47:02,139 --> 00:47:06,039
Academic researchers
took thousands of attributes

854
00:47:06,059 --> 00:47:10,110
adjectives that you might use
to describe people.

855
00:47:10,130 --> 00:47:13,039
They found
that five attributes explain

856
00:47:13,059 --> 00:47:16,099
most of the variants
in human personality.

857
00:47:18,010 --> 00:47:22,099
Conscientiousness,
agreeableness, neuroticism,

858
00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:25,199
openness to experience
and extroversion.

859
00:47:27,090 --> 00:47:31,110
With a Unicru
reading their statements

860
00:47:31,130 --> 00:47:32,090
and marketing materials,

861
00:47:32,110 --> 00:47:35,119
what it read was
Unicru allows you to clone

862
00:47:35,139 --> 00:47:37,110
your best performers.

863
00:47:39,150 --> 00:47:41,010
Cloning your best employee

864
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:44,070
sort of led me down the path of,
"Who is that employee?"

865
00:47:47,139 --> 00:47:50,199
There's actually medical papers
out there explaining

866
00:47:50,219 --> 00:47:54,159
how you can generally
diagnose mental illnesses

867
00:47:54,179 --> 00:47:56,199
using the five factor model.

868
00:47:56,219 --> 00:47:59,119
So under the Americans
with Disabilities Act,

869
00:47:59,139 --> 00:48:02,010
it's illegal to ask
prospective employees

870
00:48:02,030 --> 00:48:04,059
for medical information
or about anything

871
00:48:04,079 --> 00:48:06,059
about their physical
or mental health.

872
00:48:06,079 --> 00:48:09,139
You can't ask somebody
about a mental condition,

873
00:48:09,159 --> 00:48:12,159
but perhaps the technology
can tell whether somebody

874
00:48:12,179 --> 00:48:14,019
has a medical condition.

875
00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:16,199
You might not even know
you have a mental illness

876
00:48:16,219 --> 00:48:18,159
and taking
these personality tests

877
00:48:18,179 --> 00:48:22,130
you might keep getting denied
and just have no idea.

878
00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:26,190
I just cheated on Myers-Briggs
with another personality test.

879
00:48:26,210 --> 00:48:31,030
That's right,
I took the Big Five test.

880
00:48:31,050 --> 00:48:34,199
What I wanted to do is go
through the results live.

881
00:48:36,119 --> 00:48:38,070
We'll see how much
of a loser I am.

882
00:48:38,090 --> 00:48:41,050
All right, so first up
is agreeableness.

883
00:48:41,070 --> 00:48:46,030
Agreeableness?
I scored 77 which probably means

884
00:48:46,050 --> 00:48:47,210
I'm a big doormat.

885
00:48:47,230 --> 00:48:49,110
So now we move on
to the next one.

886
00:48:49,130 --> 00:48:51,150
Conscientiousness,
which I think

887
00:48:51,170 --> 00:48:55,119
basically translates
to how hard you work.

888
00:48:55,139 --> 00:48:56,230
Conscientiousness.

889
00:48:57,010 --> 00:49:02,079
Oh, I'm in the 4th percentile
of conscientiousness.

890
00:49:03,010 --> 00:49:04,059
Dang!

891
00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:06,150
Oh, now we're getting
to the stuff I'm good at.

892
00:49:06,170 --> 00:49:08,059
Neuroticism.

893
00:49:08,079 --> 00:49:11,139
Neuroticism,
I scored in the 97th percentile.

894
00:49:11,159 --> 00:49:13,010
No surprise there.

895
00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:16,150
People with exceptionally high
levels of neuroticism like me

896
00:49:16,170 --> 00:49:21,059
tend to think that everything in
life has always been going wrong

897
00:49:21,079 --> 00:49:22,190
and always will.

898
00:49:24,219 --> 00:49:26,019
[electronic music]

899
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:44,130
When you steer
someone away from a job

900
00:49:44,150 --> 00:49:46,179
that they're not as
likely to do well in,

901
00:49:46,199 --> 00:49:49,039
you've done them a favor

902
00:49:49,059 --> 00:49:51,000
even though
it doesn't feel like a favor.

903
00:49:51,019 --> 00:49:53,230
If you help someone land
in a job

904
00:49:54,010 --> 00:49:56,000
that they're likely
to enjoy and do well

905
00:49:56,019 --> 00:49:57,119
it's a win for everybody.

906
00:49:57,139 --> 00:50:00,030
And, of course, companies
have a vested interest

907
00:50:00,050 --> 00:50:01,050
in picking the best people.

908
00:50:01,070 --> 00:50:06,030
The problem of why are some
people more interested

909
00:50:06,050 --> 00:50:09,090
and capable in specific types
of work?

910
00:50:09,110 --> 00:50:11,039
That's an interesting question.

911
00:50:12,019 --> 00:50:15,170
And I just fell in love
with it early on.

912
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:20,199
We use Big Five.

913
00:50:20,219 --> 00:50:23,199
It's certainly not the only
theory of personality

914
00:50:23,219 --> 00:50:26,190
but it's got
a strong research basis.

915
00:50:28,170 --> 00:50:31,130
And I built some
of the earliest examples

916
00:50:31,150 --> 00:50:35,059
of automated psychological
testing that employers use

917
00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:38,159
to pick better employees.

918
00:50:39,210 --> 00:50:43,000
One of my first companies
that I worked for

919
00:50:43,019 --> 00:50:48,019
was trying to validate
an honesty test.

920
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:50,070
Did you write number one?

921
00:50:50,130 --> 00:50:52,090
No.

922
00:50:52,110 --> 00:50:55,059
When I was in college,
you couldn't get a job

923
00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:57,150
at a convenience store or a gas
station

924
00:50:57,170 --> 00:50:59,199
without taking a polygraph.

925
00:50:59,219 --> 00:51:01,190
It was a very common practice.

926
00:51:01,210 --> 00:51:04,210
It wasn't reliable.
It wasn't scientifically valid.

927
00:51:04,230 --> 00:51:09,110
And so Congress passed
the Polygraph Protection Act

928
00:51:09,130 --> 00:51:12,019
which forbade
the use of the polygraph

929
00:51:12,039 --> 00:51:14,139
for employee selection
in most of the jobs.

930
00:51:21,230 --> 00:51:26,019
In the late 80s there were
a few influential developments

931
00:51:26,039 --> 00:51:28,199
in machine learning
and pattern recognition

932
00:51:28,219 --> 00:51:31,070
one of the major branches
of artificial intelligence.

933
00:51:31,090 --> 00:51:32,199
I was all about trying
to implement that research.

934
00:51:32,219 --> 00:51:37,070
And finally,
a group of entrepreneurs

935
00:51:37,090 --> 00:51:38,079
from the West Coast
called me and said,

936
00:51:38,099 --> 00:51:41,219
"We'd like to talk to you
about your research."

937
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,000
And so I moved out to Portland

938
00:51:45,019 --> 00:51:47,150
and we put together
a little company

939
00:51:47,170 --> 00:51:50,039
that grew quite quickly.

940
00:51:50,059 --> 00:51:52,000
Six or seven years passed.

941
00:51:52,019 --> 00:51:55,070
We were estimated
to have about half

942
00:51:55,090 --> 00:51:59,039
of the domestic hourly hiring
market in the United States.

943
00:51:59,059 --> 00:52:01,059
So we were processing

944
00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:04,050
between 70 and 90 million
applications a year.

945
00:52:04,070 --> 00:52:08,190
Hotel, customer service,
waiters.

946
00:52:08,210 --> 00:52:10,110
Our little system's here

947
00:52:10,130 --> 00:52:13,210
influencing the lives
of millions of people.

948
00:52:17,219 --> 00:52:20,150
Even though I had
so many positive things

949
00:52:20,170 --> 00:52:23,059
going on in my life
I just couldn't stop revisiting,

950
00:52:23,079 --> 00:52:29,170
Why me, why am I un-hireable?
What's wrong with me?

951
00:52:30,059 --> 00:52:32,070
Is my personality wrong?

952
00:52:32,090 --> 00:52:33,210
Is there something
wrong with me?

953
00:52:33,230 --> 00:52:34,019
Am I broken?

954
00:52:37,059 --> 00:52:42,110
We could actually be explicitly
making sure that hiring systems

955
00:52:42,130 --> 00:52:48,170
are inclusive and creating
diverse workforces.

956
00:52:48,190 --> 00:52:50,099
That's not what we're doing,
though.

957
00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:53,019
What we're doing
is propagating past practices.

958
00:52:53,039 --> 00:52:55,219
We are repeating the past.

959
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,210
[Kyle] Is this platform new?

960
00:52:58,230 --> 00:53:01,219
People constantly have to
perform their personalities.

961
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,059
They are always on the clock.

962
00:53:05,079 --> 00:53:09,110
And they not only have
to perform their personalities

963
00:53:09,130 --> 00:53:10,190
but they have
to be happy to do it.

964
00:53:10,210 --> 00:53:13,010
They have to do it willingly.

965
00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:14,230
I think one
of the extraordinary things

966
00:53:15,010 --> 00:53:17,179
about the Myers-Briggs
Type Indicator

967
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:19,210
is that that's there from
its very inception,

968
00:53:19,230 --> 00:53:22,139
almost incidentally.

969
00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:23,179
But of course
it's not an accident

970
00:53:23,199 --> 00:53:27,110
because Isabel herself is
a product of this ideology.

971
00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:30,119
[Myers voice]

972
00:53:43,179 --> 00:53:45,150
When I started
researching the book,

973
00:53:45,170 --> 00:53:49,210
I thought it would be a fairly
simple research process.

974
00:53:49,230 --> 00:53:54,000
But the more I got into it,
the more I realized

975
00:53:54,019 --> 00:53:56,179
that there were things
people didn't want me to find.

976
00:54:00,119 --> 00:54:04,059
So I would go up to archives
and the files that I needed

977
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:06,010
would have been removed.

978
00:54:07,039 --> 00:54:09,230
I would go to archives
and there would be people

979
00:54:10,010 --> 00:54:13,019
assigned to watch me
as I was doing my work.

980
00:54:13,039 --> 00:54:15,210
That does start making you
a little bit paranoid.

981
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,030
What is it that the people

982
00:54:19,050 --> 00:54:21,119
who have a vested interest
in the indicator

983
00:54:21,139 --> 00:54:24,210
don't want disclosed
about it's origins.

984
00:54:26,059 --> 00:54:30,139
I was completely stunned
to realize that Isabel

985
00:54:30,159 --> 00:54:32,139
was a successful
mystery novelist

986
00:54:32,159 --> 00:54:34,139
before she designed
the type indicator.

987
00:54:37,090 --> 00:54:41,099
And in the late 1920s
she had written a mystery novel

988
00:54:41,119 --> 00:54:42,190
in about five weeks.

989
00:54:42,210 --> 00:54:44,070
She had done it
while her children

990
00:54:44,090 --> 00:54:45,230
were asleep at night.

991
00:54:46,010 --> 00:54:48,210
And she had entered it
into a competition

992
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:51,000
and it had won
and was published.

993
00:54:52,179 --> 00:54:54,139
And then I realized

994
00:54:54,159 --> 00:54:56,039
that she had written
a second novel,

995
00:54:56,059 --> 00:55:00,199
but that novel wasn't advertised
anywhere on the website.

996
00:55:00,219 --> 00:55:03,159
It was very, very difficult
to track down

997
00:55:03,179 --> 00:55:06,159
in any sort
of mainstream library.

998
00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:12,139
And when I finally found it
and I read it, I understood why.

999
00:55:18,110 --> 00:55:23,050
Because that novel features
the same team of detectives.

1000
00:55:23,070 --> 00:55:25,039
Only this time
they're investigating

1001
00:55:25,059 --> 00:55:28,179
a series of suicides that take
place among an old aristocratic

1002
00:55:28,199 --> 00:55:30,070
Southern family.

1003
00:55:36,130 --> 00:55:39,070
And it turns out that the reason
the members of this family

1004
00:55:39,090 --> 00:55:42,000
are committing suicide is
because they believe

1005
00:55:42,019 --> 00:55:45,019
that they have a single drop

1006
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:47,110
of African American blood
in their veins.

1007
00:55:49,210 --> 00:55:52,190
[ominous music]

1008
00:56:01,199 --> 00:56:05,110
And so it's a really
horrifyingly racist novel.

1009
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:15,090
Reading it I felt betrayed,

1010
00:56:15,110 --> 00:56:17,170
because you have this woman
who on the one hand

1011
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:22,110
is committed to a certain set
of progressive ideals,

1012
00:56:22,130 --> 00:56:24,139
particularly for her time.

1013
00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:27,099
And on the other hand,
everything she's doing

1014
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:30,130
is weighed down by a very, very
troubling set of ideologies.

1015
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:46,059
So, for instance when Isabel
is first administering

1016
00:56:46,079 --> 00:56:50,010
the indicator to people
who work at a factory

1017
00:56:50,030 --> 00:56:52,199
she wouldn't test anybody
she said with an IQ under 100

1018
00:56:52,219 --> 00:56:54,059
because she didn't believe

1019
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:56,050
that they have the cognitive
capabilities

1020
00:56:56,070 --> 00:56:59,070
to differentiate
their personalities.

1021
00:57:02,039 --> 00:57:03,139
And she argues that the people

1022
00:57:03,159 --> 00:57:06,039
who have the clearest
personality preferences are

1023
00:57:06,059 --> 00:57:08,110
research scientists and CEOs.

1024
00:57:14,159 --> 00:57:16,130
When the type indicator
was first designed

1025
00:57:16,150 --> 00:57:19,030
there were separate answer keys
for men and for women,

1026
00:57:19,050 --> 00:57:21,000
under the assumption that women

1027
00:57:21,019 --> 00:57:23,090
were simply biologically
predisposed to feeling

1028
00:57:23,110 --> 00:57:25,090
and so you couldn't actually
evaluate

1029
00:57:25,110 --> 00:57:29,030
men's and women's answers
on the same scale.

1030
00:57:29,050 --> 00:57:30,090
They had to have different
scales.

1031
00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:37,079
All of these little moments
in the history

1032
00:57:37,099 --> 00:57:38,110
of the type indicator
contain these traces

1033
00:57:38,130 --> 00:57:43,000
of Isabel's classicism
and her racism and her sexism

1034
00:57:43,019 --> 00:57:45,070
and her ableism.

1035
00:57:53,059 --> 00:57:55,139
It's primarily
the white managerial class,

1036
00:57:55,159 --> 00:57:57,050
around which the idea
of personality,

1037
00:57:57,070 --> 00:58:01,010
as Isabel understands it
and articulates it

1038
00:58:01,030 --> 00:58:03,139
through the type indicator,
is constructed.

1039
00:58:04,090 --> 00:58:07,150
The way the indicator
was designed

1040
00:58:07,170 --> 00:58:10,070
and the way that any
personality test

1041
00:58:10,090 --> 00:58:14,059
really is designed is
to perpetuate the language

1042
00:58:14,079 --> 00:58:16,119
of individuality
and of the self

1043
00:58:16,139 --> 00:58:18,139
for people who already
have access to it.

1044
00:58:22,099 --> 00:58:26,050
If people create something
they bring into that something

1045
00:58:26,070 --> 00:58:28,039
all of their preexisting values.

1046
00:58:28,059 --> 00:58:30,090
There is no way
to preemptively excise

1047
00:58:30,110 --> 00:58:31,210
those values from the creation.

1048
00:58:31,230 --> 00:58:34,210
Problem is what does it mean
when those biases are tied

1049
00:58:34,230 --> 00:58:38,130
to systems of power that harm
whole communities of people.

1050
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:46,179
It was really telling to me
how Isabel's prejudices

1051
00:58:46,199 --> 00:58:51,039
which it would be very easy
to dismiss as being of her time,

1052
00:58:51,059 --> 00:58:54,010
were not of her time,
they're of our present

1053
00:58:54,030 --> 00:58:55,170
and they continue
to be used today

1054
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:57,159
to sustain the powers
of the dominant classes.

1055
00:59:05,039 --> 00:59:08,119
Merve Emre came out with a book
of the personality brokers.

1056
00:59:08,139 --> 00:59:12,000
She made some assumptions
and implied some things

1057
00:59:12,019 --> 00:59:14,019
I don't even want to repeat
because I found them

1058
00:59:14,039 --> 00:59:16,139
so profoundly offensive.

1059
00:59:16,159 --> 00:59:21,079
Isabel did care deeply
about preventing another Hitler

1060
00:59:21,099 --> 00:59:22,139
about intolerance.

1061
00:59:22,159 --> 00:59:27,179
And I think that her really
primary focus was to appreciate

1062
00:59:27,199 --> 00:59:29,099
your own uniqueness

1063
00:59:29,119 --> 00:59:33,019
and be able to appreciate
people who are different,

1064
00:59:33,039 --> 00:59:36,170
which has never seemed more
relevant to me than it does now.

1065
00:59:42,110 --> 00:59:45,090
I think there are ways
that it's being used

1066
00:59:45,110 --> 00:59:50,119
that she would want to get
in there and correct.

1067
00:59:50,139 --> 00:59:54,099
I don't think she ever wanted
to see it used to discriminate

1068
00:59:54,119 --> 00:59:55,179
in hiring, for example.

1069
00:59:59,070 --> 01:00:01,059
Increasing the speed

1070
01:00:01,079 --> 01:00:03,119
and memory
capability of computers.

1071
01:00:03,139 --> 01:00:07,110
Like most sociologists
I'd learned about bias,

1072
01:00:07,130 --> 01:00:10,110
in terms of human bias,
and I never really thought

1073
01:00:10,130 --> 01:00:14,030
about the fact that bias
could also be encoded

1074
01:00:14,050 --> 01:00:16,019
in computer programming.

1075
01:00:16,039 --> 01:00:18,130
With new technologies
we're actually encountering

1076
01:00:18,150 --> 01:00:20,079
new forms of discrimination,

1077
01:00:20,099 --> 01:00:22,159
that were not really
conceived of

1078
01:00:22,179 --> 01:00:25,010
when we created
the antidiscrimination laws

1079
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:26,150
that we have now.

1080
01:00:30,070 --> 01:00:31,199
Is there really evidence

1081
01:00:31,219 --> 01:00:35,019
that employment personality
tests can be racially biased?

1082
01:00:35,039 --> 01:00:37,230
So, I would say yes.

1083
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,210
The whole idea of people beating
the system has definitely been

1084
01:00:48,230 --> 01:00:52,119
an idea that has it has existed
for quite some time.

1085
01:00:52,139 --> 01:00:54,179
You know,
people react to programs

1086
01:00:54,199 --> 01:00:57,150
that they feel are exclusionary
and they resist.

1087
01:01:01,230 --> 01:01:04,199
Alright, so superstars,
I've introduced you to a concept

1088
01:01:04,219 --> 01:01:09,019
about how to handle personality
assessments, right?

1089
01:01:09,039 --> 01:01:10,090
This training is a follow up.

1090
01:01:10,110 --> 01:01:12,059
We call this the results show.

1091
01:01:12,079 --> 01:01:14,170
So that you'll see
the results of your actions.

1092
01:01:14,190 --> 01:01:16,139
Whether your clicks,
whether your answers

1093
01:01:16,159 --> 01:01:17,170
would have either proved
valuable for you

1094
01:01:17,190 --> 01:01:21,110
or would have drained
your access to the job, right?

1095
01:01:21,130 --> 01:01:22,119
Okay, so we start
with number 14.

1096
01:01:22,139 --> 01:01:26,139
For the most part,
all of you love yourself.

1097
01:01:26,159 --> 01:01:28,130
You're happy,
you're happy with yourself.

1098
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:30,010
All of you.
For the most part...

1099
01:01:30,030 --> 01:01:31,130
You have to be able
to be like water

1100
01:01:31,150 --> 01:01:34,199
as Bruce Lee said, you know,
to be flexible

1101
01:01:34,219 --> 01:01:36,079
and the person that's the most
flexible is going to be

1102
01:01:36,099 --> 01:01:38,139
the person that gets the job.

1103
01:01:38,159 --> 01:01:39,139
All right,
here's another question.

1104
01:01:39,159 --> 01:01:43,099
It's hard to be optimistic
about the future?

1105
01:01:43,119 --> 01:01:46,039
Adrian said yes, and Clyde,

1106
01:01:46,059 --> 01:01:48,139
I feel bad for you.

1107
01:01:48,159 --> 01:01:50,059
Not to get personal.
This is not personal.

1108
01:01:50,079 --> 01:01:54,079
I mean, the click says maybe

1109
01:01:54,099 --> 01:01:56,050
what you felt at the moment,
right?

1110
01:01:56,070 --> 01:01:58,000
And I agree,

1111
01:01:58,019 --> 01:01:58,219
sometimes it is hard

1112
01:01:59,000 --> 01:01:59,210
to be optimistic
about the future.

1113
01:01:59,230 --> 01:02:02,090
But would you
in the interview say, yeah.

1114
01:02:02,110 --> 01:02:04,179
now, that you mentioned it?

1115
01:02:06,090 --> 01:02:06,190
Future.

1116
01:02:09,139 --> 01:02:12,150
Can we talk about,
can we talk about this?

1117
01:02:13,159 --> 01:02:15,150
These questions
are coming from a person

1118
01:02:15,170 --> 01:02:18,219
with a distinctive difference
from the people

1119
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,190
that are receiving these
applications or assessments.

1120
01:02:21,210 --> 01:02:26,119
You can have questions worded
in a way that a person

1121
01:02:26,139 --> 01:02:27,170
has never heard before

1122
01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:29,179
and it could throw them
totally off.

1123
01:02:29,199 --> 01:02:33,179
So people...
I love that word, people.

1124
01:02:33,199 --> 01:02:35,059
People may have to suffer
some criticism

1125
01:02:35,079 --> 01:02:38,000
in order to achieve a goal.

1126
01:02:38,019 --> 01:02:41,159
And everybody said "yes"
except Adrian said "no".

1127
01:02:43,090 --> 01:02:44,119
No criticism from me.

1128
01:02:44,139 --> 01:02:47,190
I can achieve my goal
my own way.

1129
01:02:47,210 --> 01:02:52,210
It depends how you feel
because I don't have no--

1130
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:54,079
You have to just ask yourself

1131
01:02:54,099 --> 01:02:56,199
why they're asking me
this question, right?

1132
01:02:56,219 --> 01:02:58,150
And so they just asking you,
I think,

1133
01:02:58,170 --> 01:03:00,039
Can you take some criticism?

1134
01:03:00,059 --> 01:03:02,159
Would you agree you could take
some critic-- you might need.

1135
01:03:02,179 --> 01:03:04,230
Has Mr E ever criticized you?

1136
01:03:06,050 --> 01:03:07,210
-Yeah.
-Ah, alright, so your answer

1137
01:03:07,230 --> 01:03:10,090
actually is yes
if you think about it, right?

1138
01:03:10,110 --> 01:03:11,130
Oh, I love this one.

1139
01:03:11,150 --> 01:03:16,099
I do not recall...
can't remember,

1140
01:03:16,119 --> 01:03:20,179
telling a lie in recent years.

1141
01:03:22,179 --> 01:03:25,019
And look at these angels.

1142
01:03:25,039 --> 01:03:26,179
Right down.

1143
01:03:28,219 --> 01:03:32,170
Now, that's very admirable.

1144
01:03:32,190 --> 01:03:34,150
They design these things
very carefully

1145
01:03:34,170 --> 01:03:37,130
and I cannot get
into the algorithms

1146
01:03:37,150 --> 01:03:39,199
of how they figure
this stuff out,

1147
01:03:39,219 --> 01:03:41,199
but I do think
it could be a trick question.

1148
01:03:43,190 --> 01:03:46,170
Obviously, it's very painful,
it's discouraging.

1149
01:03:46,190 --> 01:03:50,230
See now, Adrian,
you're getting consistent.

1150
01:03:51,010 --> 01:03:54,090
And now they're feeling
where you're at, right?

1151
01:03:54,110 --> 01:03:55,199
That's right in the numbers.

1152
01:03:55,219 --> 01:03:58,179
The software is now saying,
flashing red light.

1153
01:03:58,199 --> 01:04:02,179
I'm pleased to know
that we believe we have a way

1154
01:04:02,199 --> 01:04:06,159
to train to it,
but that's a very small portion

1155
01:04:06,179 --> 01:04:07,219
of the population.

1156
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:09,190
You know, I have anywhere

1157
01:04:09,210 --> 01:04:12,050
from 10 to 25 students
at a time.

1158
01:04:12,070 --> 01:04:16,139
We might get to 200, 250,
300 students a year.

1159
01:04:16,159 --> 01:04:20,010
It's New York City,
that's not a lot of people.

1160
01:04:20,030 --> 01:04:24,079
Most people have no access
to this kind of training

1161
01:04:24,099 --> 01:04:25,219
or this kind of framing.

1162
01:04:28,199 --> 01:04:30,150
I have suffered many times

1163
01:04:30,170 --> 01:04:34,159
before I even had this
opportunity of coming to Hope.

1164
01:04:34,179 --> 01:04:37,210
But when I came here,
it gave me hope.

1165
01:04:37,230 --> 01:04:39,170
It gave me a passion.

1166
01:04:39,190 --> 01:04:44,219
It gave me everything
that I've been dreaming of,

1167
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,110
when I couldn't get it
nowhere else.

1168
01:04:48,130 --> 01:04:51,070
One day someone will take
an interest in me.

1169
01:05:02,050 --> 01:05:04,050
Let's face it,
most psychological tests

1170
01:05:04,070 --> 01:05:06,219
are written by middle aged,
white guys like me

1171
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:11,170
and we can't possibly assimilate
all the complexity, cultural

1172
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:14,159
and individual variation
that our systems

1173
01:05:14,179 --> 01:05:16,179
are going to capture.

1174
01:05:16,199 --> 01:05:22,010
Therefore, we have to anticipate
that our data sets themselves

1175
01:05:22,030 --> 01:05:24,070
could be the source
of contamination

1176
01:05:24,090 --> 01:05:26,099
and we have to analyze that,

1177
01:05:26,119 --> 01:05:29,190
and in my own working life
I've done research

1178
01:05:29,210 --> 01:05:33,159
with companies where patterns
of discrimination were observed.

1179
01:05:33,179 --> 01:05:37,150
But I do also understand
that if these algorithms

1180
01:05:37,170 --> 01:05:42,000
are configured properly,
they're going to make far more

1181
01:05:42,019 --> 01:05:46,139
correct decisions than
they're going to make errors.

1182
01:05:46,159 --> 01:05:48,019
[interviewer]

1183
01:05:51,090 --> 01:05:52,130
Of course, oh yeah.

1184
01:05:55,019 --> 01:05:58,099
I would say you may have applied
for the wrong job.

1185
01:05:58,119 --> 01:06:00,119
Who wants a job
you're going to hate?

1186
01:06:00,139 --> 01:06:05,179
Having work that is...
makes us happy,

1187
01:06:05,199 --> 01:06:08,070
is the best, it's just the best

1188
01:06:08,090 --> 01:06:11,119
and it's a natural
for human beings to actualize

1189
01:06:11,139 --> 01:06:15,039
as it is for a tree
to put leaves out.

1190
01:06:15,059 --> 01:06:18,000
It's what we're designed to do.

1191
01:06:18,019 --> 01:06:19,090
And any time
that doesn't happen,

1192
01:06:19,110 --> 01:06:22,150
that's a tragic loss.

1193
01:06:27,170 --> 01:06:29,150
Almost eight weeks ago,

1194
01:06:29,170 --> 01:06:33,000
my wife and I went over
to Kyle's house.

1195
01:06:36,199 --> 01:06:41,000
We got there and saw
that his car was in the garage.

1196
01:06:41,019 --> 01:06:43,110
The house was locked up.

1197
01:06:45,030 --> 01:06:49,030
We were able to open
the garage door.

1198
01:06:49,050 --> 01:06:50,119
Went in the house

1199
01:06:51,030 --> 01:06:54,000
and went up to his bedroom

1200
01:06:54,019 --> 01:06:57,110
and found Kyle dead there.

1201
01:06:57,130 --> 01:07:01,119
He had taken his life and...

1202
01:07:05,150 --> 01:07:09,079
everything since then
has been adjusting.

1203
01:07:17,059 --> 01:07:20,039
[sad music]

1204
01:07:21,219 --> 01:07:23,170
[child's voice]

1205
01:07:25,150 --> 01:07:28,219
[Kyle shouting cheerfully]

1206
01:07:33,150 --> 01:07:36,230
[sad music continues]

1207
01:07:40,010 --> 01:07:42,000
[indistinct chatter]

1208
01:07:51,199 --> 01:07:53,230
[slide projector clicking]

1209
01:07:54,010 --> 01:07:58,030
Kyle, had 29 years
of wonderful life

1210
01:07:59,110 --> 01:08:01,000
that I am...

1211
01:08:04,090 --> 01:08:09,150
ever grateful for having had him
for those 29 years.

1212
01:08:09,170 --> 01:08:13,030
For him having been
a part of my life for that.

1213
01:08:14,039 --> 01:08:18,029
I would have liked it had
been much much longer...

1214
01:08:20,210 --> 01:08:23,090
...and it's not.

1215
01:08:23,109 --> 01:08:26,119
But while he's physically
not with us,

1216
01:08:26,140 --> 01:08:29,189
he still connects.

1217
01:08:29,210 --> 01:08:33,010
You know, you go a lot of places
where we used to go.

1218
01:08:33,029 --> 01:08:37,020
You do things that we used to do
or you continue on in this case

1219
01:08:37,039 --> 01:08:38,149
you know, fighting the fights

1220
01:08:38,170 --> 01:08:40,170
that he thought
were important to fight.

1221
01:08:45,170 --> 01:08:48,029
I never met Kyle
and I don't want to presume

1222
01:08:48,050 --> 01:08:50,020
to know what did Kyle feel

1223
01:08:50,039 --> 01:08:51,109
what was Kyle thinking.

1224
01:08:51,130 --> 01:08:53,060
When I hear about
what happened in Kyle's life

1225
01:08:53,079 --> 01:08:57,229
with facing persistent ableism
and cynicism in his attempt

1226
01:08:58,010 --> 01:09:01,170
just to find
a little bit of work to do

1227
01:09:01,189 --> 01:09:04,050
and when I hear about
his ultimate...

1228
01:09:04,069 --> 01:09:09,130
the ultimate end of his life,
that he died by suicide,

1229
01:09:09,149 --> 01:09:12,020
I think of dozens
of other community members

1230
01:09:12,039 --> 01:09:16,149
that I know and anytime
that I learn that somebody

1231
01:09:16,170 --> 01:09:18,010
from our community
is no longer here,

1232
01:09:18,029 --> 01:09:20,119
it is deeply sobering,
it is deeply upsetting

1233
01:09:20,140 --> 01:09:23,180
and it is a further indictment
of the society that we live in

1234
01:09:23,199 --> 01:09:26,149
of just how profoundly
fucked it all is.

1235
01:09:28,170 --> 01:09:31,109
[interviewer speaking
indistinctly]

1236
01:09:32,199 --> 01:09:34,109
So my name is
Dr Nathan Mondragon.

1237
01:09:34,130 --> 01:09:37,010
I'm the chief industrial
and organizational psychologist

1238
01:09:37,029 --> 01:09:38,050
with a company called HireVue.

1239
01:09:40,229 --> 01:09:44,210
HireVue is, in a nutshell
a video interview platform.

1240
01:09:46,010 --> 01:09:49,189
We're growing
significantly year over year.

1241
01:09:53,020 --> 01:09:56,149
Dr Scarborough's tests were kind
of multiple choice questions.

1242
01:09:58,130 --> 01:10:01,140
You then roll answers to

1243
01:10:01,159 --> 01:10:04,189
those questions up
into a score of some sort.

1244
01:10:04,210 --> 01:10:07,149
Savvy applicants
start to figure out

1245
01:10:07,170 --> 01:10:09,210
what the answer key might be.

1246
01:10:12,060 --> 01:10:14,180
The next level of research
that we're doing is

1247
01:10:14,199 --> 01:10:17,060
we look at the words.

1248
01:10:17,079 --> 01:10:20,100
We also look at
the audio patterns

1249
01:10:20,119 --> 01:10:21,189
and then we're starting
to look at

1250
01:10:21,210 --> 01:10:23,119
what's called
the facial action units,

1251
01:10:23,140 --> 01:10:25,020
the movement of the face.

1252
01:10:26,189 --> 01:10:29,069
So an example.
Do you like your boss?

1253
01:10:29,090 --> 01:10:31,159
And you say,
"I like my boss."

1254
01:10:31,180 --> 01:10:34,220
Alright, good,
but "I like my boss,"

1255
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,000
has a different connotation
to it when you layer

1256
01:10:38,020 --> 01:10:40,220
the video and the audio
and the facial movement

1257
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,170
on top of the text.

1258
01:10:44,189 --> 01:10:46,079
That's what we're researching.

1259
01:10:46,100 --> 01:10:49,220
That is unproven at this point.

1260
01:10:53,159 --> 01:10:56,079
When I first learned
about HireVue

1261
01:10:56,100 --> 01:10:59,119
my reaction was,
"I'm sorry, what?

1262
01:10:59,140 --> 01:11:02,189
Employers are trying to do
what exactly?

1263
01:11:02,210 --> 01:11:06,029
How do you purport to be able
to look at a video

1264
01:11:06,050 --> 01:11:08,189
of a person's speech
and movement and say

1265
01:11:08,210 --> 01:11:10,079
"Oh, now, we know
from this video,

1266
01:11:10,100 --> 01:11:13,020
whether or not you are going
to be successful at this job."

1267
01:11:13,039 --> 01:11:16,149
What the hell does that have
to actually do with anything?

1268
01:11:18,100 --> 01:11:22,039
Perception of emotions
is very subjective, right?

1269
01:11:22,060 --> 01:11:26,140
And it's also
very culturally specific.

1270
01:11:26,159 --> 01:11:29,039
So for example, somebody
from Russia will have

1271
01:11:29,060 --> 01:11:34,090
different body movements
or body language to express

1272
01:11:34,109 --> 01:11:39,170
even the same emotion
as somebody from North America.

1273
01:11:45,050 --> 01:11:46,130
Humans are biased, yes.

1274
01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:50,000
But one biased human manager
can only impact

1275
01:11:50,020 --> 01:11:52,199
maybe a hundred resumes
at a time.

1276
01:11:52,220 --> 01:11:55,079
But one biased
automated hiring system,

1277
01:11:55,100 --> 01:11:59,210
that is deployed throughout a
corporation can actually impact

1278
01:11:59,229 --> 01:12:01,109
hundreds of thousands
of resumes.

1279
01:12:04,229 --> 01:12:07,149
I think that very much goes
against our Constitution.

1280
01:12:07,170 --> 01:12:09,100
It goes against
who we are as Americans.

1281
01:12:14,079 --> 01:12:17,159
I mean what I'm saying
we're doing is in accordance

1282
01:12:17,180 --> 01:12:18,220
with what's called
the uniform guidelines

1283
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,170
and professional standards
and practices and principles.

1284
01:12:21,189 --> 01:12:25,069
Have we been sued? No.

1285
01:12:25,090 --> 01:12:30,079
There's stuff out there
people are looking.

1286
01:12:30,100 --> 01:12:33,180
David Scarborough,
he came under fire at Unicru

1287
01:12:33,199 --> 01:12:36,010
for some stuff as well
years ago

1288
01:12:36,029 --> 01:12:38,229
and it's just part
of the business

1289
01:12:39,010 --> 01:12:42,050
but if you do things correctly

1290
01:12:42,069 --> 01:12:45,130
you're maximizing
that defendability.

1291
01:12:45,149 --> 01:12:49,029
One worry is the idea
that automated hiring platforms

1292
01:12:49,050 --> 01:12:51,039
could actually create
an underclass of people

1293
01:12:51,060 --> 01:12:55,220
who are permanently
unemployable.

1294
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,079
Once someone gets rejected
from several jobs

1295
01:12:59,100 --> 01:13:03,130
that actually does create
a gap in employment.

1296
01:13:03,149 --> 01:13:06,140
And then that gap in employment
just gets bigger and bigger

1297
01:13:06,159 --> 01:13:09,020
each time they get rejected
and that kind of puts them

1298
01:13:09,039 --> 01:13:11,180
in a position
where they're now

1299
01:13:11,199 --> 01:13:14,180
no longer a preferred worker.

1300
01:13:16,119 --> 01:13:18,069
Then there's a worry
that you're designating

1301
01:13:18,090 --> 01:13:22,130
certain groups of people
as unfit for employment

1302
01:13:22,149 --> 01:13:25,229
and this really goes back
to notions of eugenics.

1303
01:13:27,159 --> 01:13:31,159
Eugenics was this major movement
at the turn of the 20th century

1304
01:13:31,180 --> 01:13:33,060
that gained enormous traction

1305
01:13:33,079 --> 01:13:34,100
to the point
where several cities

1306
01:13:34,119 --> 01:13:38,100
in the United States founded
their own societies

1307
01:13:38,119 --> 01:13:39,069
for the public hygiene.

1308
01:13:39,090 --> 01:13:42,039
Eugenics was the science
of the future

1309
01:13:42,060 --> 01:13:43,149
of forward thinking people.

1310
01:13:43,170 --> 01:13:46,029
Eugenics was the science
of devising a better society

1311
01:13:46,050 --> 01:13:47,039
by creating better humans.

1312
01:13:47,060 --> 01:13:49,109
But eugenics itself is,
of course,

1313
01:13:49,130 --> 01:13:53,010
deeply white supremacist
and deeply ableist,

1314
01:13:53,029 --> 01:13:54,229
because eugenics
was the science of deciding

1315
01:13:55,010 --> 01:13:56,060
which kinds of people

1316
01:13:56,079 --> 01:13:58,069
deserve to reproduce
and to be reproduced.

1317
01:13:58,090 --> 01:13:59,100
Which kinds of people
deserve to exist

1318
01:13:59,119 --> 01:14:02,140
which kinds of people did not.
Which kinds of people

1319
01:14:02,159 --> 01:14:03,220
would be counted as productive

1320
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:05,020
and contributing members
of society,

1321
01:14:05,039 --> 01:14:07,100
and in turn,
which kinds of people

1322
01:14:07,119 --> 01:14:09,090
would instead be cast off
as burdens.

1323
01:14:14,189 --> 01:14:17,039
And that's why we got to go
the extra mile to show them

1324
01:14:17,060 --> 01:14:21,119
"No, I'm superior
in so many different ways."

1325
01:14:21,140 --> 01:14:24,079
Eugenics continues to be
mainstream science

1326
01:14:24,100 --> 01:14:25,229
in the United States,
just not under that name.

1327
01:14:26,010 --> 01:14:28,090
We think that you're worthy
because your personality is

1328
01:14:28,109 --> 01:14:30,029
the appropriate
personality here.

1329
01:14:30,050 --> 01:14:31,109
Your personality is
the one that matches those

1330
01:14:31,130 --> 01:14:34,149
of previously successful
performers of this company.

1331
01:14:34,170 --> 01:14:37,079
And they want to see
that you are the best person.

1332
01:14:37,100 --> 01:14:40,189
Not because you said it,
because I demonstrated it.

1333
01:14:40,210 --> 01:14:44,149
Employers or other people
who are using things

1334
01:14:44,170 --> 01:14:46,000
like personality tests to decide

1335
01:14:46,020 --> 01:14:48,090
who they want
to offer opportunities to...

1336
01:14:48,109 --> 01:14:50,210
that is... let us be very clear
about this and not mince words.

1337
01:14:50,229 --> 01:14:51,140
Who they want to make sure

1338
01:14:53,050 --> 01:14:54,069
and a roof over their head

1339
01:14:56,029 --> 01:14:58,039
fuck you, sucks to be you.

1340
01:14:58,060 --> 01:15:00,159
Then they're relying on the same
type of pseudoscience

1341
01:15:00,180 --> 01:15:04,050
that you are doing when you were
measuring people's skulls

1342
01:15:04,069 --> 01:15:07,100
to decide which person
is intelligent or not.

1343
01:15:11,229 --> 01:15:15,079
[car engine]

1344
01:15:16,069 --> 01:15:18,100
Meeting today is
an important step

1345
01:15:18,119 --> 01:15:21,149
because we're looking
to change the law

1346
01:15:21,170 --> 01:15:28,199
to be able to more effectively
protect those who are

1347
01:15:28,220 --> 01:15:30,050
discriminated against.

1348
01:15:31,010 --> 01:15:34,090
[plaintive music]

1349
01:15:47,109 --> 01:15:48,140
I don't think that there is
an end to the quest

1350
01:15:48,159 --> 01:15:52,229
there's an end to this
particular part of the quest.

1351
01:15:53,010 --> 01:15:55,140
He would have loved being part
of today's meeting

1352
01:15:57,029 --> 01:15:57,140
up on the hill.

1353
01:16:00,029 --> 01:16:04,109
Yeah, he was there.

1354
01:16:04,130 --> 01:16:08,079
Just not as vocal as
I would have liked him to be.

1355
01:16:12,149 --> 01:16:14,090
I mean, in my worst fears

1356
01:16:14,109 --> 01:16:17,000
of the future
of hiring algorithms

1357
01:16:17,020 --> 01:16:21,189
it doesn't even just start
at the moment of application.

1358
01:16:21,210 --> 01:16:25,079
We already have a system
to get us to applying

1359
01:16:25,100 --> 01:16:27,069
that is problematic.

1360
01:16:27,090 --> 01:16:29,069
I would call it the pipeline,
and that's now.

1361
01:16:29,090 --> 01:16:32,130
So the dystopian future
that I worry about is this

1362
01:16:32,149 --> 01:16:35,079
but it goes backwards in time

1363
01:16:35,100 --> 01:16:37,140
in the sense that it starts
in childhood.

1364
01:16:39,119 --> 01:16:41,229
These big tech companies
are collecting data

1365
01:16:42,010 --> 01:16:45,000
about how our children learn.

1366
01:16:45,020 --> 01:16:49,039
At the age of seven,
they are already pinned down

1367
01:16:49,060 --> 01:16:52,189
into their future job prospect

1368
01:16:52,210 --> 01:16:55,000
and as they go through junior
high school and high school

1369
01:16:55,020 --> 01:16:57,109
they're just confirming,

1370
01:16:57,130 --> 01:16:59,029
"Oh, yeah, this is
an unlucky person,"

1371
01:16:59,050 --> 01:17:00,159
they don't deserve a good job.

1372
01:17:03,119 --> 01:17:06,109
I know people are like,
"Well I'm not Kyle,

1373
01:17:06,130 --> 01:17:08,180
why should I worry about Kyle?"

1374
01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:13,039
Sorry.

1375
01:17:13,060 --> 01:17:15,210
That... it is their story.

1376
01:17:23,079 --> 01:17:26,079
This is happening to everyone...

1377
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:27,149
...all the time.

1378
01:17:30,130 --> 01:17:33,119
It's happening
to literally everyone.

1379
01:17:34,210 --> 01:17:38,029
And the longer
we let this... system,

1380
01:17:38,050 --> 01:17:39,180
the predictive AI system

1381
01:17:39,199 --> 01:17:43,119
the longer we let it remain
completely unaccountable,

1382
01:17:43,140 --> 01:17:44,199
the more it defines us

1383
01:17:44,220 --> 01:17:47,199
the more it defines
our futures.

1384
01:17:47,220 --> 01:17:51,199
I'd like to start by sharing
a story of Kyle Behm

1385
01:17:51,220 --> 01:17:53,210
a bright college
engineering student

1386
01:17:53,229 --> 01:17:57,210
who applied for an hourly job
at Kroger.

1387
01:17:57,229 --> 01:17:59,170
He has held similar positions
in the past.

1388
01:17:59,189 --> 01:18:03,050
Yet after taking a personality
assessment,

1389
01:18:03,069 --> 01:18:06,010
he was scored red and rejected.

1390
01:18:08,100 --> 01:18:10,210
Sadly, Kyle is no longer
with us today.

1391
01:18:10,229 --> 01:18:15,159
But his father Roland continues
to abdicate to ensure people

1392
01:18:15,180 --> 01:18:19,109
with disabilities are not
systematically excluded

1393
01:18:19,130 --> 01:18:22,039
by hiring assessment.

1394
01:18:59,050 --> 01:19:02,060
Breathe deeply with me
and recite these mantras.

1395
01:19:05,020 --> 01:19:08,050
I am enough.
I am capable.

1396
01:19:08,069 --> 01:19:10,060
That mean thing
that my mom said on the phone

1397
01:19:10,079 --> 01:19:11,189
this morning is not accurate.

1398
01:19:11,210 --> 01:19:13,119
I don't know if I want
to think about

1399
01:19:13,140 --> 01:19:15,130
what my life
would have been like

1400
01:19:15,149 --> 01:19:19,229
if I hadn't come across
typology.

1401
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:25,029
It's like totally
transformed everything.

1402
01:19:26,159 --> 01:19:29,029
It makes you realize that there
are other people out there

1403
01:19:29,050 --> 01:19:31,109
who are functioning in the same
way that you are

1404
01:19:31,130 --> 01:19:32,199
and that you're not alone

1405
01:19:32,220 --> 01:19:36,050
and you're not just
some random weirdo.

1406
01:19:38,050 --> 01:19:40,090
[techno music]

1407
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:48,149
The language of type

1408
01:19:48,170 --> 01:19:51,050
and the vision of the self
that it encodes,

1409
01:19:51,069 --> 01:19:53,159
those are treated as
naturally occurring phenomenon.

1410
01:19:53,180 --> 01:19:57,060
Just part of what it means
to be a human being.

1411
01:19:57,079 --> 01:19:58,229
But they have histories
and they have histories

1412
01:19:59,010 --> 01:20:01,220
that have all kinds
of ideologies embedded in them

1413
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:05,000
and that's why it's so important
to understand,

1414
01:20:05,020 --> 01:20:06,199
where these instruments
come from.

1415
01:20:09,159 --> 01:20:11,149
They wouldn't exist
without corporations

1416
01:20:11,170 --> 01:20:13,039
and they wouldn't exist

1417
01:20:13,060 --> 01:20:14,140
without organizational
psychology

1418
01:20:14,159 --> 01:20:17,090
whose whole purpose
is to figure out

1419
01:20:17,109 --> 01:20:18,210
how to use the human psyche

1420
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:23,039
to make corporations run better
to run more profitably.

1421
01:20:23,060 --> 01:20:25,100
And to me,
the most interesting response

1422
01:20:25,119 --> 01:20:26,199
to personality testing

1423
01:20:26,220 --> 01:20:29,229
would be to walk away
from the individual

1424
01:20:30,010 --> 01:20:32,170
as a thing that we really,
really need to understand

1425
01:20:32,189 --> 01:20:35,020
and think about
what it might look like

1426
01:20:35,039 --> 01:20:39,010
to live in a world
where was a sense of community

1427
01:20:39,029 --> 01:20:42,079
that we were invested
in understanding.

1428
01:20:42,100 --> 01:20:44,100
To imagine a world
where desires and needs

1429
01:20:44,119 --> 01:20:46,010
are more collective.

1430
01:20:49,199 --> 01:20:52,079
New generation
of AI driven screens

1431
01:20:52,100 --> 01:20:56,039
are transforming the lives
of America's workers

1432
01:20:56,060 --> 01:20:57,210
with profound implications
for civil rights.

1433
01:20:59,140 --> 01:21:02,090
Employers are being bombarded

1434
01:21:02,109 --> 01:21:04,100
with thousands
of applications sometimes.

1435
01:21:04,119 --> 01:21:08,159
And in its simplest form
AI tools are capable

1436
01:21:08,180 --> 01:21:12,050
of simply scanning
those applications or resumes

1437
01:21:12,069 --> 01:21:13,210
to screen out those
who don't even have

1438
01:21:13,229 --> 01:21:16,229
the minimum qualifications
for the job.

1439
01:21:17,010 --> 01:21:18,180
When video interviewing systems

1440
01:21:18,199 --> 01:21:22,180
are trained on white male voices
and faces

1441
01:21:22,199 --> 01:21:26,130
this disadvantages both racial
minorities and white women,

1442
01:21:26,149 --> 01:21:28,100
whose facial expressions
and tone of voice

1443
01:21:28,119 --> 01:21:31,010
might be misinterpreted.

1444
01:21:35,149 --> 01:21:38,229
-[laughter]
-Are you serious?

1445
01:21:39,010 --> 01:21:41,010
[people laughing and
chatting]

1446
01:21:43,189 --> 01:21:47,069
Wow, I did not expect this
right here.

1447
01:21:47,090 --> 01:21:49,020
I want to ask the whole panel

1448
01:21:49,039 --> 01:21:51,100
if there was one thing
Congress could do right now

1449
01:21:51,119 --> 01:21:52,220
what would it be?

1450
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:55,140
I believe a workers bill
of rights is needed.

1451
01:21:55,159 --> 01:21:59,180
so that workers understand how
algorithms are making decisions

1452
01:21:59,199 --> 01:22:01,109
and how that might impact them.

1453
01:22:01,130 --> 01:22:02,220
The person that I selected

1454
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:07,079
for this week's employee
of the week is...

1455
01:22:08,199 --> 01:22:10,170
[students cheer and yell]

1456
01:22:15,109 --> 01:22:18,199
The struggle for people is
not merely one of insufficient

1457
01:22:18,220 --> 01:22:21,000
or inadequate laws
and policies

1458
01:22:21,020 --> 01:22:24,119
but it is also one fundamentally
of justice in society

1459
01:22:24,140 --> 01:22:27,069
to accomplish the kind of change
that we want in the world.

1460
01:22:28,130 --> 01:22:30,170
[birds chirping]

1461
01:22:32,159 --> 01:22:36,189
Imagine you're looking out
into your yard.

1462
01:22:36,210 --> 01:22:41,100
You can look in a magazine
and see the perfect garden.

1463
01:22:41,119 --> 01:22:45,029
But what's going to happen
over the years is,

1464
01:22:45,050 --> 01:22:48,159
as you put this garden together
each time you add something

1465
01:22:48,180 --> 01:22:51,210
to the garden
it's going to look

1466
01:22:51,229 --> 01:22:54,060
a little different
from perfect.

1467
01:22:56,220 --> 01:22:59,000
And each time you add
one more thing

1468
01:22:59,020 --> 01:23:02,140
it's not going to be perfect,
it's not going to be perfect.

1469
01:23:07,119 --> 01:23:11,000
But then at the end of the day

1470
01:23:11,020 --> 01:23:15,199
after years of this imperfection
you look out the window

1471
01:23:15,220 --> 01:23:18,029
and what you'll see
is more beautiful

1472
01:23:18,050 --> 01:23:20,180
than you ever could have
thought to put together

1473
01:23:20,199 --> 01:23:22,149
in the first place.

1474
01:23:29,060 --> 01:23:32,199
[friendly chattering]
[uplifting music]

1475
01:23:40,050 --> 01:23:45,020
The white beads symbolize
the loss of a child.

1476
01:23:45,039 --> 01:23:48,100
If you're wearing a white bead
at this moment,

1477
01:23:48,119 --> 01:23:51,010
please take them off
and hold them up high.

1478
01:23:54,090 --> 01:23:57,210
[triumphant music]

1479
01:24:42,159 --> 01:24:43,220
[cell phone rings]

1480
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:45,090
- Hello.
-Hello, this is Lashawn.

1481
01:24:45,109 --> 01:24:48,060
You get me Mr E?

1482
01:24:48,079 --> 01:24:50,109
Yes, Lashawn
How are you doing, man?

1483
01:24:50,130 --> 01:24:52,039
I'm all right,
about yourself?

1484
01:24:52,060 --> 01:24:55,069
I have some great news
to tell you.

1485
01:24:55,090 --> 01:24:58,100
- What's that?
-I got a job.

1486
01:24:58,119 --> 01:25:00,140
- You got a job?
-Yeah, yeah.

1487
01:25:00,159 --> 01:25:03,109
- Oh, get outta here.
-Seriously.

1488
01:25:03,130 --> 01:25:07,149
I am a superintendent
for a building...

1489
01:25:07,170 --> 01:25:09,210
Oh wow, that's great...
[fades]