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Avner, How are you?
Well, thanks, Colonel. Yourself?
Good. Good.
Would you like some coffee,
-something to eat? -No, thank you.
My wife makes sure I'm well-fed in the morning.
And how is Vera?
Uh, enjoying better health, thankfully.
Glad to hear.
So...
Don't keep me in suspense. What's all the fuss?
Eichmann.
Eichmann?
The architect of the Final Solution?
So the press says.
They say it, but you've got to prove it.
Prove it?
Yes.
The government has entrusted the police
with the Eichmann investigation.
I'm putting together a team, a-- a group of officers,
to-- to build a case aga-- against Eichmann.
They will gather together whatever testimonies,
depositions, documents, any evidence you need.
Build a case?
Surely there's a mountain of evidence
against this man for a conviction.
He was hiding like a mouse in Buenos Aires.
Uh-- He even admitted to Mossad that he was, in fact,
Adolf Eichmann.
So, what more do you need?
We need specifics. Details.
We need to know what part he played in the SS
and what hand he had in the Holocaust of our people.
What do you need from me?
You've got to interrogate him.
You must make him confess his crimes.
General Salinger signed off on you.
You suggested me to Salinger?
I-- No. I wouldn't do that to a friend.
He selected you.
He believes you are the best man for the job.
You speak German
and you're one of the most competent
criminal investigators in Israel.
It won't be an easy task, for sure.
It'll probably take, uh, longer than three months.
Uh, and you must be discreet.
You mustn't tell your family, your friends,
even your wife.
You want me to spend three months
in a room with Adolf Eichmann?
My own personal concentration camp.
And for what? What's the point?
Why stir up all these years of pain and grief?
It won't bring the murdered millions back.
He needs a fair trial.
And someone's got to do it.
I am Captain Less.
I am told that you are willing-- eager in fact--
To tell of your role in the Third Reich.
Very much so.
You are fully aware that you are not being coerced,
that you testify of your own free will.
And that the testimony can be used as evidence in court.
Yes. Yes.
I notice you're not wearing your badge.
We're trying to be discreet.
That's one of the reasons we've put you up in this motel.
By the way, how do you find it?
There's a bed, a bathroom, shower, kitchen.
There's no television, but I can't complain.
Might I ask why all this cloak and dagger stuff?
It's for your own safety.
There are lots of people out there
who would just like us to hang you
and be done with it.
Well, I appreciate your frankness.
I don't think any successful interrogation
can be conducted without a certain level of trust.
I understand that you and I are colleagues.
I was once a policeman, myself.
You were never a policeman.
You were in the SS.
Is that so?
Well, I'm not afraid of the police.
I know them.
The courts are something else, however.
I've never been on trial before.
Please. Sit down.
Before we start, Captain,
I would just like to say that my role in what happened
between 1933 and 1945 was a passive one.
The best way to put it would be to say
that I was a small cog in the gigantic machine
that was the Third Reich.
Let's begin with your curriculum vitae.
Well, I was born in March 19th, in 1906,
at Solingen in the Rhineland.
My father was a bookkeeper
for the Solingen Light and Power company.
That was the name, more or less.
In 1913, he was transferred to the Linz Power and Light Company
in Linz on the Danube.
Probably in connection with the loan
that the AEG had with an Austrian company
that he was the commercial director of until 1924.
In 1914, he moved his family to Austria.
So, from 1914 on,
I lived in Linz on the Danube in Upper Austria
with my parents, my brothers and sisters.
Suppose we go back a little.
What was your father's name?
My father's name was Adolf Karl Eichmann.
Do you have any brothers or sisters, Captain?
What?
Are your parents still alive?
I feel like I'm telling you all about myself.
But I know nothing about you.
Perhaps I'll tell you later.
Oh, I hope so.
Well, my mother's name was Maria Eichmann, nee Schefferling.
But aside from economic considerations,
I had other reasons for wanting to get away,
to leave Austria and go to Germany.
Even in my school days, we had political groups--
All perfectly harmless, of course.
Nationalists, socialists, monarchists.
The kind of things youngsters went in for
without thinking about it very much.
For instance, you'd join the monarchists or the nationalists
just because you had a good friend in one of those groups.
That was the first political talk I had heard.
At home, the subject was never mentioned.
My father had no interest in politics.
I had an old friend in Linz.
His name was Friedrich von Schmidt,
son of Field Marshal von Schmidt,
whom I never met because he died
before I made friends with his son.
The family was enormously proud of the father
because he'd risen from private to field marshal lieutenant
in the days of Emperor Franz Joseph.
So, he must have been a very brave, fine,
upstanding soldier, a-- and a fine, upstanding man.
My friend's mother had been a countess so-and-so,
a very distinguished family.
They were still living with the old ideas.
But when my friend, Friedrich, would forget his fine manners,
then he was just a good fellow.
Naturally, he associated mostly with military men.
And one day, he persuaded me
to join the Young Veterans Association,
the youth section of the German Austrian Veterans Association.
"Public need before public greed," was its slogan.
It was the only organization that dared march the streets.
Most of the members were monarchists,
some Christian-orientated,
and only a vanishing minority were nationalists.
National socialism was still unheard of.
So, most of you were loyal to Austria?
Around 1931, there was friction
between the nationalists and the monarchists.
You don't have any cigarettes, do you, Captain?
The ones the guards give me simply aren't good enough.
You can't smoke in here.
But if you like, I'll request
your cigarette ration to be increased.
Ah, thank you.
Anyway, around that time,
the SA were marching through the streets.
The SS were trying to recruit members
of the Young Veterans Association.
One day, the Nazi Party,
or NSDAP, as they called themselves,
held a mass meeting
in a large Bavarian-style beer hall.
My friend, Ernst Kaltenbrunner,
came straight up to me.
His father was a lawyer in Linz.
His father and my father had business dealings for decades.
Ernst spoke to me straight.
He said, "You will join us."
I said, "All right."
So, I just sort of fell into it.
Fell into it?
I joined the SS.
Just like that?
Well, that's the way it was done in those days.
No fuss.
I won't be home for dinner.
It's the Colonel. He's got me on something big.
No, I can't talk about it.
All right. I love you, too.
Kiss the kids good night for me.
We've touched on the Final Solution of the Jewish Question.
Would you like to speak about that now or...
about the war with Russia, first?
The Final Solution.
Yes, well, it's mixed up
with something that happened
after the start of the German-Russian war.
At the time, Reich Marshal Goering issued a document
conferring a special title on the chief
of the Reich main security office, Heydrich.
The Reich main security officer's duties
were to eliminate all enemies of the Reich,
both domestic and abroad.
I'm trying to remember the wording of the title.
Was it...
Depu-- Deputy Charge with the...
Final Solution?
Or with the solution of the Jewish problem?
Anyway, the war with the Soviet Union
began in 1941, I believe.
And I believe it was two or three months later
that Heydrich sent for me.
He began with a little speech.
And then he said to me,
"The Fuhrer has ordered physical extermination."
These were his exact words.
And as though wanting to test their effect on me...
he made a long pause, which was not at all his way.
I can still remember that.
Initially, I didn't grasp the imc-- implications,
because he chose his words so carefully.
But then I understood.
I didn't say anything.
I mean, what could I say?
Because I'd never thought of such a thing,
such a violent solution.
And then he said to me, "Eichmann...
go and see Globocnik in Lublin."
Who?
He-- he was head of the SS and the police
in the Lublin district in Poland.
As ordered, I went to Lublin,
located the headquarters of the SS and police,
and I told Globocnik that Heydrich had sent me
because the Fuhrer had ordered
the physical extermination of the Jews.
Globocnik sent me with one of his staff members.
I don't remember the place was called--
I get them mixed up.
I couldn't say if it was Treblinka
or somewhere else.
There were patches of woods, uh, sort of.
And the road passed through a Polish highway.
On the right side of the road, there was an ordinary house
where the workers lived.
A captain of the regular police welcomed us.
A few workmen were still there.
The captain had taken off his jacket
and rolled up his sleeves, which surprised me.
Somehow he seemed to be joining in with the work.
They were building little wooden shacks,
two or maybe three of them.
They looked like two- or three-room cottages.
My escort told the police captain
to explain the installation.
He had a vulgar, uncultivated voice.
Maybe-- maybe he drank.
He told me how he had made everything airtight.
It seemed they were going to hook up
a Russian submarine engine
and pipe the exhaust into the houses
and the Jews inside would be poisoned.
I-- I was horrified!
My nerves aren't strong enough.
I can't listen to such--
Such things without them affecting me.
Even today, if I see someone with a large cut,
I have to look away.
I could never have been a doctor.
I still remember how I visualized the scene
and began to tremble,
a-- as if I'd been through some
terrible experience,
the kind of thing that makes you...
shake.
Then I received orders to go to Lichmenstadt
and report back what was going on there.
So, I went to the Gestapo headquarters in Lichmenstadt
and there I was told that it was a special team put in,
bought by the Reich Fuhrer,
Himmler.
I saw a large room with Jews in it.
They made them take off all their clothes.
Then a sealed truck drove up
and the naked Jews got in.
The door was closed and the truck drove away.
How many people did this truck hold?
I-- I don't know exactly.
The whole time I was there, I never looked inside.
I couldn't. Couldn't!
What I had seen and heard was enough.
The screaming.
I was much too shaken.
I drove after that truck and what I saw...
what-- was the most horrific thing
I had ever seen in my life.
It drove up to a-- a rather long trench.
The back doors were open
and corpses were just thrown out.
The-- Their limbs were supple as if they were being alive.
Just thrown in!
I can still see someone
with a pair of pliers pulling out their teeth.
And then I got into my car and drove off.
I didn't say another word to my driver.
I'd had enough. I was through.
In Berlin, I reported to Gruppenfuhrer Muller.
Not Heydrich?
I was working for Heydrich,
but Muller was my direct superior.
I told him the same as what I have told you now.
It's terrible! I can't! It's-- it's--
"I can't do it!" I told him.
What did Muller say?
Muller never said anything. Never.
Not about these things or anything else.
He always was very unemotional
and said only what was strictly necessary.
He would have-- either say yes or he would say no.
And if he didn't say yes or no,
then he would say,
"Eichmann, my friend,
that's neither yes or no."
Did you report on this in writing?
No, I couldn't do that.
I wa-- I was expressly forbidden by Heydrich.
Muller especially wanted to know how long it takes.
I wasn't able to tell him that. I couldn't hear.
I should have gone out there a second time,
but naturally, I didn't volunteer.
Did you see Jews being gassed by submarine engines,
by Globocnik's outfit?
No, I never saw that.
How many of these places were your sent to?
Let me think. The ones I've already mentioned.
And Auschwitz.
Minsk.
Treblinka.
That was all, I believe.
Oh, yes. And Lemberg.
Were these just information-gathering missions
or did you have some special assignment?
No, no assignment. I had no...
special orders to give or anything.
No instructions about who to gas
or whether anyone was to be gassed,
whether the gassing could or should be stopped,
or started or intensified.
I never had anything to do with all of that, Captain.
And if the newspapers say I did,
then I tell you, they are lies.
I'm telling you the truth!
What were your reports like
about the extermination camps to Muller?
Muller said to me.
"In Minsk, the Jews are being shot.
I'd like a report on that."
So, I went to Minsk...
and asked for the commanding officer.
He wasn't there.
So, I spoke to someone else and told him
I had orders to see what was going on.
I spent the night in that town
and the next day I went to the place.
But I got there too late.
The work for that morning was already done--
Almost done.
And I was very glad for that.
When I got there, I was just in time to see
young riflemen with the Death's Head collar patch
shooting into a pit.
I can still see
a woman with her arms behind her back
and her knees crumpled.
And then I cleared out.
The pit was full of corpses?
It was full, it was full!
I went to my car, I got in and I drove back to Lemberg.
I told the SS officer there, I said to him,
"It's horrible what they're doing there.
They're tr-- training men to be sadists!
How can they stand there, firing on women and children?
How is it possible?
These men will either go mad or become sadists."
He said to me,
"They're doing the same thing here.
You want to see?"
I told him I didn't, but-- but...
but we were driving past there anyway.
There had been a pit there.
It was already filled in
and the blood was gushing out of it.
How shall I say?
Like a geyser.
I'd never seen anything like it.
I'd had enough of that mission.
I went back to Berlin,
reported what I'd seen to Muller.
I said to him,
"This is no solution to the Jewish question.
And besides, we're training our young men to be sadists.
We shouldn't be surprised if the-- the men turn out to be...
criminals, all criminals."
I still remember Muller looking at me
with an expression that said,
"Eichmann.
You're right.
That's no solution."
But he didn't say anything.
What could he do about it?
Not a thing. Not a thing.
And who gave the orders for such actions?
The orders. The orders.
Obviously, the orders must have come
from the head of the security police
and the SD, Heydrich.
And he would have been given the orders
from Reichsfuhrer Himmler.
What about the Fuhrer?
Sorry?
Did Hitler not give the order to him?
Yes. Well, I don't know.
There isn't any evidence
of any express orders, to my knowledge,
but Himmler must have had express orders from Hitler.
Otherwise he would have been out on his ear
before he knew what hit him.
That's my thinking, at least.
Did Himmler give written orders
for the Final Solution of the Jewish Question?
Written?
For extermination? Physical extermination?
Yes.
I never saw such orders, Captain.
Wasn't like that.
All I know is that Heydrich said to me,
"The Fuhrer has ordered
physical extermination of the Jews."
He said it as clearly and as surely
as I'm repeating it here now.
I implored Muller.
"Please, don't send me there.
Send someone else. Someone with stronger nerves."
They never sent me to the front.
I was never a soldier.
There are plenty of other people
who could stand to see such things,
who won't kneel over.
"I can't stand it. I can't, Gruppenfuhrer.”
But it never got me anywhere.
We'll take a break now.
We'll continue on this subject later.
I heard your wife's name is Vera, Captain.
- You heard? - Well...
I overheard some of the guards.
My wife's name is Vera, too.
What are the chances?
Perhaps it was fate.
What do you know about Zyklon B gas?
Nothing, apart from what I've heard.
It's contained in beer.
I only heard the name Zyklon B recently.
I knew of it as prussic acid.
Mm.
Well, I'm now going to quote from the German edition
of the Proceedings of the Trial of the Leading War Criminals
Before the International Military Court in Nuremberg.
"From the sworn testimony of Rudolf Hoss,
who was camp commander at Auschwitz
from 1914 to 1943."
He said...
"Eichmann was repeatedly in Auschwitz
and knew exactly what was being done."
Captain, I only knew what I had said.
Neither in Auschwitz or anywhere else
did I witness the extermination process.
It was only in Minsk
that I got there after the shooting had begun.
Everywhere else, I refused, because I wasn't up to it.
I knew nothing about the gas.
When Rudolf Hoss was under arrest in Poland,
he made some autobiographical notes.
Here.
I have, uh, an extract from his book,
Commandant of Auschwitz.
"Eichmann told me about the killing
by exhaust fumes in trucks,
as had been practiced in the east up until then.
That, however, would not have been possible
for the mass shipments that we-- that were to be expected.
Killing by spraying with carbon monoxide in a bathroom
as it had been done with the mentally ill
in some places in the Reich,
would have required too many buildings.
Moreover, it was questionable
whether sufficient gas could be procured
for such a vast number of people.
We left the matter unresolved.
Eichmann undertook to find out about a gas
that was easily obtainable
and required no special installations.
And report to me about it."
Have you a comment to make?
Yes, sir, I have.
The overwhelming majority of these assertions
are pure invention.
It is obvious to me
that his only intention was to clear the name
of his department:
the SS Administration and Supply Headquarters.
And why would he bother protecting his own department
when he was on trial for war crimes?
I haven't the faintest idea. His reasons are unknown to me.
But I never, in any way-- and to this, Captain,
I will take any oath-- discussed this matter with Hoss.
I will now show you a document presented
by the prosecution
of the first Nuremberg War Crimes trial.
It is a statement by Dr. Kurt Gerstein,
former head of the Technical Disinfection Service
in the SS Command headquarters.
Now, it concerns the utilization of the poison gas
that had been ordered from him in July 1942
by Rolf Gunther.
Your deputy, your representative.
I wasn't aware of Gunther ordering
any prussic acid in 1942,
I must say it's odd, very odd,
that Gunther should be mixed up in this.
I wasn't involved in this, Captain.
I ask that you not attach any importance to this document.
If I had anything to do with it,
my name would be mentioned here, as per custom.
But you gave Gunther the order.
He certainly wouldn't have acted on his own accord.
No, no, no.
And this I must deny, Captain.
Of course Gunther didn't think of this on his own.
He must have received an order. That much is plain.
But he didn't get it from me.
I didn't know.
A hundred kilos of prussic acid.
I knew nothing about that.
He must have got the order from Muller-- directly.
I find that hard to believe,
that Muller would go over your head
in giving Gunther a special order?
No. What Gerstein says here that suddenly, on June 8th, 1942,
Gunther ordered the gas.
With Hoss' statement about the preparations
for the gassing
and your telling him that you'd find out about a gas.
Hangs together rather nicely, doesn't it?
Oh, I'm sorry, Captain, but lots of things
that have happened "hang together nicely."
But if I had been involved in it,
Gerstein would have mentioned me.
And Gerstein never mentioned me.
Do you remember The Wannsee Conference,
where the implementation of the Final Solution
was determined?
Yes, I was present.
I wrote the invitations to the state secretaries.
Is that all?
Yes.
Well, why were you invited
if you played such a...
subordinate role?
I had to write the invitations,
supply Heydrich with data for his speeches,
the immigration information and so on.
Was Muller there, too?
Yes.
It was a high-level conference,
as I said then. Nothing below state secretary.
Then why bring little Eichmann in?
Heydrich couldn't have been all that keen on
having to keep asking
during the conference, "Are my figures correct?"
No, he did that beforehand.
Things to do with emmigration.
At the time of The Wannsee Conference,
the killing had just begun.
The gassing machines were already at work.
And if the killing had started--
And it had started!
It was probably to do with the organization of the program,
something that I had nothing to do with.
Most would regard the fact
that you were brought to the conference
an indication that you played a much...
bigger role in the Final Solution than you admit.
No, no, Captain.
If I had spoken up at The Wannsee Conference,
it would have been purely to say, "Yes, sir."
I-- I sat in the corner with the stenotypist
and nobody bothered with me.
Not even Heydrich.
I was insignificant there.
Rudolf Hoss quotes you here.
"I will leap into my grave laughing
because the feeling that I have five million human beings
on my conscience...
is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction.
Yes, I believe I remember that.
But I was referring to the enemies of the Reich--
The Soviets, not the Jews.
There wasn't any mention of the Jews at all,
no mention whatsoever.
Here is a document presented by the prosecution
of the 11th War Crimes Trial at Nuremberg.
It comes from the Foreign Office
and it concerns the shipment
of 318 Hungarian Jews.
Hmm. Yes.
Well, it's to do with an illegal shipment.
And in my opinion, it is a mistake
where it says here
that these things were arranged
between Reich Fuhrer Himmler
and Ostbahn Fuhrer Eichmann.
That is wrong.
Himmler organized these things with...
Dr. Kasztner and Kurt Becker.
Dr. Kasztner?
As in the Kasztner train?
The same one.
He saved 1,700 Jews.
More than Schindler.
But Schindler wasn't assassinated
by your countrymen three years ago.
He wasn't assassinated by my countrymen.
He was assassinated by extremists.
And Schindler was responsible for saving Jews.
Not killing them.
He didn't pull any triggers.
But don't you think that he is responsible,
partly at least,
for the Jews that he didn't save?
Or for not alerting the world to the mass murder of Jews?
Eichmann, if you really believed that,
you'd consider yourself guilty.
Ah, So, you see my point?
No. No, I don't.
I'm as guilty or innocent as Schindler.
And I am certainly more innocent than Dr. Kasztner.
And Becker?
Becker was the commissaire
of all the German concentration camps
and the Economic Department in Hungary.
What was the Economic Department?
Their job was to extract all economic benefits
from the Jews:
steal their property and belongings,
cut off their hair, pull out their teeth.
Their hair was very profitable.
He sold it to the Schaeffler Group
for use in their automobile parts.
Upholstery, I believe it was.
Becker was very resourceful for Himmler.
Yes, I see here that Becker was cleared at Nuremberg.
Not just that, Captain,
but he was never even on trial.
He was there as a witness, not as a war criminal.
That snake, Dr. Kasztner,
testified before the Nuremberg Court
that Becker opposed the annihilation of Jews.
He did no such thing.
And now he is one of the most wealthy men
in Western Germany.
A businessman.
But I doubt your government would believe my accusations.
Probably wasting my breath.
Well, this communication makes no mention of Becker.
It refers to a conversation between you and Himmler.
Well, yes.
That information is partly true.
I did meet with Himmler with Becker, together.
And later,
Becker was ordered to report to Himmler by himself.
What they decided, I don't know.
I was only to put through the transaction
for the transport.
So, you're claiming you had...
no part in the negotiation?
No.
It was Himmler, Becker and Dr. Kasztner.
The economic end wasn't my department.
I was only interested in the police aspect.
I made no deals for transport...
no deals about anything.
Hmm. So, you want me to believe
that your department
was so ignorant
that it would tell the Foreign Office
that the shipment of Jews
was the product of...
an oral agreement
between Himmler and you?
Well, that information is half correct
because I did meet with Himmler with Becker,
but he also met with Himmler separately.
We had two divisions of labor.
One took care of certain things
and one took care of certain other things.
Becker, for instance,
couldn't have transported the Jews
across the border safely.
That was in my province.
And when did this, uh, conference
with Himmler take place?
1944.
Late 1944.
I remember Himmler
had a train outside of a tunnel.
And there was an air raid alarm.
The train went into the tunnel.
On the way there from Budapest,
we went in two cars:
Becker in Himmler's and I in mine.
Earlier, Becker had shown me a gold necklace,
which he'd meant to give him for his mistress,
with whom he'd had a child.
Then,
he told me that he was optimistic
about the outcome of the war.
Yes. Yes, yes.
Look, don't worry. I'm sure it's nothing.
Has anything else been happening?
Oh, that's great.
Yes. Yes. I will come. I will come.
No, no, no. I-- |- I promise, I won't wake him.
Listen, tell him I'm proud of--
We're getting nowhere, Avner.
He's not admitted to having more than an ancillary role
in the Third Reich and the Final Solution.
He's not stupid.
His defense strategy follows Nuremberg to the letter.
He distances himself from actions
as far away as possible.
And when I give him documentary proof,
well, he starts blaming others--
Subordinates, superiors. Failing that,
he just says, "I was following orders."
Now, I don't know whether he's thinking
he can save his own neck...
but he's not doing a bad job.
Eichmann is not going to tell us
he had a decisive role in the Final Solution.
And it seems you can't get him to confess it.
I can.
I just need more time.
Eichmann trusts me in a way.
I'm the closest thing that he has to a confidant,
closest thing to a friend,
at least someone who will listen.
I can use that.
We don't have all the time in the world
for you two to bond.
The whole of Israel is calling for his execution.
We are not barbarians.
He does deserve to die. Sooner is better than later.
We are not Nazis.
I'm getting pressure from the very top.
If you don't get somewhere soon--
What? We're going to say he hanged himself in his cell?
Who's going to believe that?
If you repeat what I'm going to tell you now
to anyone, ever, then you'll be charged with treason.
If we can't get somewhere close to a confession,
if after this process
we're able to secure a conviction,
then I have the authority to destroy the tapes.
We'll say there was a fire or something along those lines.
Uh, we-- we-- they will doctor the transcripts
and make the transcribers swear
that that's what they heard on the tapes.
It may be only a few minor changes,
a few words here and there that'll make the difference
between Eichmann being convicted or acquitted.
And the machine you're using,
I believe, belongs to the Soviet.
It shouldn't be too difficult
to make people believe that it simply broke.
Why am I being followed?
Why are there strange cars outside my house?
What does my wife tell me there are strange men
when she picks the children up from school?
Avner...
Don't lie to me, Colonel.
I know they're your men.
It's just a precaution.
We're getting death threats daily
from lunatics, radical groups.
It's just-- it's just a precaution.
You're the one who didn't want
this-- this investigation in the first place.
Don't make things difficult.
If Eichmann doesn't get a fair trial...
we're turning our back on the past.
Avner.
If we don't get somewhere soon,
you'll leave me no choice.
You've stated you...
only act on orders.
I'm going to show you some documents
presented by the prosecution
at the 11th War Crime Trials of Nuremberg.
The first is a telegram...
to the Foreign Office, dated March 13, 1943,
dealing with the anti-Jewish measures
planned by the Italian Foreign Ministry.
Now, the second document, uh,
is from Foreign Minister Ribbentrop,
uh, asking your department
to determine in consultation with Himmler
whether the anti-Jewish measures decided
in the Italian-occupied Greece
were, um...
adequate.
And if so, whether these measures
were actually being carried out.
Now, here it claims
you determined the anti-Jewish measures were inadequate.
Because on the one hand they were identical
with the likewise inadequate anti-Jewish measures
current in Italy.
And on the other hand, expertise,
uh, or other experience, gave you ground for doubt
that the measures were being honestly carried out.
Well, yeah,
I don't remember this particular case.
I mean, it was a long time ago, you know?
Another lifetime.
Well, can it be inferred from this document
that Ribbentrop gave instructions
to consult your department
so as to be sure...
of proceeding...
with your wishes and instructions?
And I'm to take it
that in fundamental questions of this kind,
the Foreign Office couldn't make a decision
without consulting your department.
Well, I suppose my-- my department.
I had to get my instructions from my superiors.
Now, I'm going to show you another document
presented by the prosecution
at the 11th War Crime Trials in Nuremberg.
Uh... it's a telegram, top secret, from Budapest,
dated the 6th of July, 1944,
It's a situation report
sent directly by German minister in Budapest,
Veesenmayer,
to Foreign Minister Ribbentrop,
regarding an interview with Hungarian Prime Minister,
Sztojay.
Now, Sztojay was upset about this order
so he asked Veesenmayer for an interview.
And in that interview,
Sztojay spoke of difficulties
that the handling of the Jewish Question
was creating in Hungary.
And now this report suggests
that Hungarian auth-- authorities
weren't the ones demanding deportation of the Jews.
Yeah... The fact is,
insofar as my own practice,
that is, my own practical experience is concerned--
And I'm referring now to the lower echelons--
I couldn't help but observe the opposite.
And I assure you, the whole course of events
pointed in that direction.
Without the help of the Hungarian military,
the processing of Jews would not have been possible.
And another indication is that I, at no time,
attempted to influence the Hungarian government,
as some people here are trying to suggest.
On the contrary,
this document clearly states
that these things originated
from the highest Reich authority,
of which I played no part.
But it clearly shows
that the, uh, civilian Hungarian population
were not, uh, enthusiastic about your anti-Jewish policy.
Well, the interests of the Hungarian civilian population
were none of my concern.
That wasn't my job.
My job, Captain,
was to carry out the orders
that were given to me.
And these things were none of my concern.
You can see here that...
it clearly states that these were things
that concerned the highest spheres of leadership.
What did you do about the Jews
who fled across the Hungarian borders
to escape deportation?
There must have been a lot of them.
It depends.
It-- it depended on the nature of the case
and the nature of the terrain.
No German headquarters were competent,
because we had no personnel.
The competent authority was the Hungarian military,
who, among other things,
did the same work as our border police.
But weren't you, uh, interested
in letting as few escape as possible,
seeing that, uh, the aim was to deport
as many as possible?
According to my orders, yes.
According to the orders that I had,
of course it was within my interest
that Jews residing in Hungary
were to be deported
and that they shouldn't all escape.
In a formal sense, so to speak,
I opposed it.
But in practice,
nothing was done.
So, you're claiming
that you allowed some Jews to escape
and you did nothing
to organize their capture?
Yes.
I did exactly as I was ordered to do.
But beyond that, I was not an anti-Semite.
I did nothing
beyond the strict orders
to deport Jews,
as you can see by the large number
who actually did escape.
I'm going to show you
some documents presented by the prosecution
of the 11th War Crime Trials at Nuremberg.
It's a telegram signed by Veesenmayer
dated Budapest, June 14, 1944,
And it concerns the flight of Jews to Slovakia.
It's a telegram from Veesenmayer to Ribbentrop.
It deals with the information
that more and more Jews...
residing in Hungary are crossing over to Slovakia.
And a suggestion that if Ribbentrop agreed,
Veesenmayer would meet with the German minister
in Slovakia
to work out joint practical measures.
Since for political and military reasons,
these escapes were most, uh, undesirable.
Well, you see, it's as I said before:
the border zones naturally tempted people to escape.
The woods, the mountains.
And undoubtedly, the initiator of this action
was not me.
It seems there was an uprising in East Slovakia.
Yes. After reading this document,
can you still maintain that the Hungarians
were the driving force
behind the extermination of Jews in Hungary?
Captain, if in war time
people try to escape,
regardless of whether they're Jews,
Hungarians, Germans--
Even Germans--
It stands to reason
that steps must be taken to stop them.
That was my position no-- then,
and I cannot deny it today.
When several Jews fled to Romania,
did you not get in touch with, uh, von Killinger,
the German minister in Bucharest,
and demand that these escaped
be brought back at all costs?
At all costs? At all costs?
In the first place, that--
I could never had said those words.
It is possible that my associate, Krumi,
had drafted a-- a-- a formal warrant.
But at all costs?
Certainly no one said that
or anything like that.
Your guidelines for the shipment.
They include the order, "In cases of attempted escape,
firearms are to be used."
No, I-- I've never heard of that.
In Hungary...
firearms definitely weren't the practice.
In Hungary,
I am absolutely sure that weapons were never used
in cases of attempted escape.
No.
I don't believe that.
I don't believe it.
In an isolated case or two,
it may have somehow come to that,
but I can't imagine it.
It would not have been necessary.
Had you told the Hungarian undersecretary
that the half million Jews deported
were sent to Auschwitz to be gassed?
We-- Yes, I...
I personally believed,
and I still believe,
that the majority of the 450,000 Jews
who were sent to Auschwitz survived.
Because an order came through
almost immediately, as it were,
to stop the shipments.
From Himmler?
Yes.
The-- the commander of the security police in Budapest
received a-- a suspension order.
There was not to be any more deportations.
Because Auschwitz had no more room.
That's why Himmler sent orders
for the killings to stop.
Auschwitz was full.
There was no room for any more people.
I believe there was a week's pause.
You mean it started up again?
It started up again after that?
Yes.
What is the meaning of, "Termination
of the entire action, including deportation,”
as your liaison in the Foreign Office writes here?
Well, Captain, it-- it means
total elimination of the Jews in Hungary.
Including babies,
children,
old people?
Well, in this case, yes.
But that wasn't my department.
This is the work
of the combined top brass:
Foreign Minister Ribbentrop
and Reichsfuhrer Himmler.
Excuse me, Captain Less.
Herr Eichmann has an appointment with the judge.
Oh--
No. Captain, please!
I-- I haven't told you everything yet.
Don't take me away. Please!
Stop.
Don't worry.
You're being taken to the justice of the peace
who is going to renew your order for detention.
And then we'll continue our sessions.
Captain.
May I make some personal remarks?
I have long been inwardly prepared
to make a general statement of this sort,
but I did not know where fate would call on me to make it.
Someone told me that...
I would appear in court before the year was out.
I was also told
that I would not survive my 56th birthday.
One of those prophecies has already come true.
And the other...
I believe...
is inexorable.
All my life, I have been accustomed to obedience,
from early childhood until May 8th, 1945.
An obedience, which during my years
of membership with the SS,
became blind and unconditional.
For that...
what would I have gained by disobedience,
and who would it have served?
For that, my rank and function
placed me in a-- too far a lower position.
Nevertheless,
though I have no blood on my hands...
I fully expect that the death penalty awaits me.
If as a greater act of atonement...
I am prepared as an example
and a deterrent to other anti-Semites of the world...
to hang myself in public.
We have no recourse. We must alter the records.
No.
Why?
Why-- why are you so insistent
in showing justice to a man
who showed no justice whatsoever to six million souls,
who me-- at the very least, aided in slaughtering?
He doesn't deserve it, but he needs a fair trial.
The world needs to see we are different.
It's been 15 years and some of the world has forgotten.
But we cannot.
If we do not learn from the past,
we are fated to repeat it.
I'd agree with you
if this was a perfect world,
but it isn't a perfect world.
And sometimes we are forced
to do unpleasant things
for the greater good.
Have you not read the transcripts?
This is how it starts.
Hitler didn't begin by gassing the Jews.
Captain Less, I'm ordering you to fabricate the transcripts.
You're ordering me?
No.
I refuse.
Excuse me?
If you continue to pursue this plan...
I will go to the press.
Look, if you don't care about your own life,
think about your family.
No!
I will not blindly follow orders, like him.
I will go to the press.
A-- Avner, if Eichmann is acquitted,
it'll be on your head.
I must commend you, Captain.
I'm well aware that throughout our sessions
you have not once attempted to obtain a confession
through means of a threat or promises.
I am grateful for your fairness.
We're nearly at the end of our interviews.
I'd like to show you something.
Play the picture, please.
Captain! Why are you showing me this?
Enough, Captain.
You know I don't have the stomach for this.
Turn it off.
Please, Captain. Turn it off!
I was born in Germany.
I went to school in Germany.
I grew up in Germany.
I left when Hitler seized power.
You asked me when we first met,
"Were my parents still alive?"
My father was deported
by your organization
in January 1943.
It's horrible, Captain. It's horrible.
I'd like to read to you a few passages
from the German magazine, Stern.
The issue of July 9, 1960,
contains an article about you.
I'll read you only a few bits.
Here it says, "And so he writes"--
meaning you--
"On title page of Dr. Fritz Kahn's book, The Atom,
'I mentally digested this book
and found it to be a magnificent confirmation
of the National Socialist religion and theism.
And because this faith is remotely related
to the communist doctrine,
that is to Leninist materialism,
I warn my children not to lump them all together.
Leninist-Marxist doctrine teaches materialism.
It is cold and lifeless.
Theism, on the other hand,
is loving, natural and always alive.
But unfortunately,
I fear that considering the ignorance of my three sons,
all this will be no more than empty talk to them.
My house was searched.
Yes, I wrote that thing,
because my sons
were absolutely disinterested
in their-- their--
let's say s-- uh, uh, faculties for spiritual development.
I wrote that as a warning to them.
I love my children!
The article goes on to say,
"He told them the excuse
or justification he had prepared for himself.
He said their father was wanted,
that he was accused of hideous crimes.
But it was not true.
He had only been a conscientious official
who had done what he was ordered to do,
but never killed anyone"--
And that is the truth!
It continues, "With friends, he admits who he is,
engages in endless conversations,
reads everything that has been published
since the war about his field of activity,
the Jewish Question.
He clings desperately to the one remaining justification
for his actions:
his oath to the flag, his sense of duty...
and obedience.
And everyone who in the last hours
of the thousand-year Reich
put human feeling about unconditional obedience
is the object of Eichmann's irreconcilable hatred.
He has read Gerhard Boldt's book,
The Last Days of the Reich Chancellery,
and discovered that Boldt, the author,
was not obedient to his Fuhrer down to the last comma.
The description on the dust jacket begins with the words,
'In January 1945, a young front line officer...'
Eichmann crosses out 'front line officer'
and writes in 'scoundrel...
traitor...
skunk.'
Wherever Boldt's name appears in the book,
he adds, 'scoundrel...
traitor...
skunk."
"Where Boldt said,
'The last days of the National Socialist Reich,
high SS leaders
who had been haughty and arrogant up until then,
suddenly shriveled
and appealed for sympathy to anyone who would listen,'
Eichmann makes the marginal note,
'The author is a stupid asshole.
The swine's name is Boldt.'
In another passage, Eichmann writes,
'The author should be skinned alive for his treachery.
With scoundrels of his ilk, the war was bound to be lost.'
And finally, on the last pages of the book,
Eichmann's resume':
'One, every man is entitled to live as he pleases.
Two, but then he has no right to call himself an officer.
Because three, officer equals fulfillment of duty
as specified in the soldier's oath.'
There we have it again.
Fulfillment of duty,
that straw which he clings to
and in defense of which he develops a passion
and a vocabulary
he was not yet familiar with
in the days when he was coldly
and with murderous precision,
helping to solve the Jewish Question."
Did you make such notes?
I-- I did make those notes.
But it is disgusting-- disgusting--
Of the man to speak of a-- a straw
with which I was not yet familiar at the time.
I was always familiar with it.
In fact, it was my norm.
I had taken Kant's...
categorical imperative as my norm.
I did. Long ago.
I had ordered my life by that imperative
and I had to continue to use it in my sermons to my sons
when I realized that they were letting themselves go.
I loved my sons more than anything.
But in view of their laziness,
their disinterest in their education,
I tried to use strong words.
Sometimes when I was reading a book,
I would be seized by righteous indignation.
And I would take up a pencil
and write what seemed significant to me
at that moment.
The Stern article goes on.
"Friends and acquaintances
who spoke with him in Argentina at that time
described him as a man who had gone to pieces,
who recognized his unspeakable guilt,
but who instead of confessing it to himself,
cast about with an obstinate rage for formal justification
to avoid having to condemn himself."
That's not true.
That-- that's journalistic rubbish.
And now this:
"Eichmann's conscience.
'I'm getting sick and tired,' he writes,
'of living the life
of an anonymous wanderer between two worlds.
The voice of my heart, which no man can escape,
has always whispered to me to look for peace.
I would also like to be at peace with my former enemies.
Maybe that is a part of the German character.
I would be only too glad to surrender
to the German authorities
if I were not obliged to consider
that people may still be too much interested
in the political aspect of the matter
to permit of a clear, objective outcome.
Far be it for me to doubt
that a German court
would arrive at a just verdict.
But I am not at all clear about the judicial status
that would be accorded today
to a former receiver of orders
whose duty it was to be loyal to his oath
and to carry out the orders and instructions given him.
I was no more
than a faithful, decent,
correct, conscientious
and enthusiastic member of the SS
and of Reich Security Headquarters,
inspired solely by idealistic feelings
toward the fatherland, to which I have the honor of belonging.
Despite conscientious self-examination,
I must-- I must find in my favor
that I was neither a murderer
nor a mass murderer.
But to be absolutely truthful,
I must accuse myself of complicity in killing
because I passed on the deportation orders I received
and because at least a fraction of the deportees were killed,
though by an entirely different unit.
I have said that I would have to accuse myself
of complicity in killing if...
I were to judge myself with merciless severity.
But I do not yet see clearly
whether I have the right to do this
vis-a-vis my immediate subordinates.
Therefore, I am still engaged in an inner struggle.
My subjective attitude towards the things that happened
was my belief in the necessity of a total war.
Because I could not help believing
in the constant proclamations issued by the leaders
of the then German Reich, such as,
"Victory in this total war
or the German nation will perish."
On the strength of that attitude,
I did my commander duty
with a clear conscience
and a faithful heart."
Exactly!
Hmm.
Did you write these things or...
I don't remember where, but the words are mine.
So, this part is true?
Yes, I recognize the words.
I'd like to read again from Rudolph Hoss' memories.
Oh, Captain, please. Hoss, again?
"I was acquainted with Eichmann
after I received orders
for the extermination of Jews
from Reichsfuhrer Himmler.
He came to see me in Auschwitz
to discuss the details of the extermination process.
Eichmann was a lively, active man in his thirties,
always bursting with energy.
He was always hatching new plans
and always in search of innovations and improvement.
He could never rest.
He was obsessed with the Jewish Question
and regularly gave Himmler direct oral reports
about the preparation and implementation
of the various actions.
Eichmann was obsessed with the goal
of destroying the biological foundation
of the Jew in the East.
When discussing the extermination process,
he encouraged the use of gas,
because to expect SS men to shoot women and children
would turn them into sadists."
I don't know why you are bringing Hoss up again.
As I said before, Captain, the man is a liar.
There are other people who have made similar statements
about you, Herr Eichmann.
The men on trial in Nuremberg
had no means of getting together to say,
"Let's get together to save our skins
and testify against Eichmann."
Every one of those men
knew what was in store for them.
What Hoss said was untrue. Totally untrue!
I never killed any Jews.
I am guilty of assisting with the evacuation of Jews,
under which I was under orders.
That's what gives me peace of mind.
Uh, an inner tranquilizer.
I never killed any Jews.
And for that matter, I never killed any non-Jews.
Nor did I order the killing of Jews or non-Jews.
I was simply a transportation officer.
All the evidence produced
has shown your duties went much further.
I will now read further from Stern magazine.
"This Eichmann was neither depraved nor unfeeling.
According to his own credible testimony,
he was rather sensitive,
and yet consciously and with open eyes,
this man signed the deportation orders,
which for many hundreds of thousands, meant death.
He was a bureaucrat of murder...
and he knew it.
At that time, he had neither inhibitions
nor any desire to plead orders from above.
He must bear full responsibility."
That is utter nonsense.
My attitude is that I should obey my oath.
That cannot be interpreted and it cannot be changed.
Journalists can throw away their oath,
but a soldier cannot.
Do you subscribe to the notations
you made in your books?
Yeah. |--
No one has the right
to take an interest
in what I write in my private books,
unless I lend them my books.
And I never lent them my books.
Orders from above. That's what they were.
I obeyed. Regardless of what I was ordered to do,
I would have obeyed.
Certainly, I would have obeyed.
I obeyed. I obeyed!
Here is a statement from Kurt Becker.
Becker, Captain?
We've been through this, please!
From Kurt Becker at his hearing July 10,
1947,
about the meeting between you two and Himmler,
which we previously discussed. Um...
"Herr Himmler received Eichmann for ten minutes in my presence.
He ordered Eichmann to stop the shipments of Jews to Hungary
as we were already over capacity.
Eichmann did not.
He did not halt any transports
because he wanted to extinguish
any trace of the Jew from Germany.
He disobeyed Himmler's order."
Becker is a liar.
That is pure fiction.
Well, what was the substance of your conversation
with Himmler on that day?
Oh, I don't remember, Captain.
But Himmler never gave me the order to stop the shipment.
Becker made this statement
so that he could wash his hands in innocence.
He tried to come out of the whole affair unscathed.
I'm surprised that he could have even been Standartenfuhrer.
Very amazed.
I'm also amazed
that I could have got away from Himmler scot-free.
When Himmler realized that I had disobeyed his orders,
I would have been arrested then and there,
on the spot,
and most likely shot.
By all accounts, that wasn't the process
to discipline someone of your... rank.
For lesser deeds,
men were heavily, heavily...
punished, let's say.
What-- what nonsense.
Here is the order
signed by Himmler himself.
And here is the log of Jewish shipments,
after the date of order.
Captain.
I was just trying to do my duty for my country.
I was just trying to be a soldier.
I was an ordinary man.
The only crime I'm guilty of is apathy, that's all.
What did I do, Captain?
What did I do?
You did...
nothing.
Good job, Avner.
Well done.
I think this should set up your career quite nicely.
General Sallinger is quite happy.
Where are you going?
I've finished.