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-[man] Well, uh, before we turn to our next number,
we've got a little bit of tattling to do, so to speak.
Both George Meyer and, uh, his piano player here, Billy Tipton...
these two boys have a couple of specialty acts, which are really terrific,
and I think we might get them to, uh, give us an idea of that tonight.
So first of all, we're going to sneak right over here beside Billy Tipton,
and, uh-- Billy, what, uh, what business was it that you did?
-[Billy] Well, it was more or less monkey business, you know--
-[man] Monkey business?
-[Billy] Yeah, monkey biz, kinda silly business here.
-[man] Really?
-[Billy] Yeah, it was really silly.
-[man] Well look, Silly Billy, go on and do it, will ya?
-[Billy] [chuckles] Okay!
♪jazz piano♪
Something in the little vein that...
suggests "Don't Be That Way."
AN
-[Chase] I would love to know any reactions to receiving a call
about a project about Billy Tipton.
-[man] I guess, I'm a musician and I didn't know who he was
and I was very surprised at myself.
Also, a little bit guilty.
I was like, "This is like a trans legend!
Like, how-- how have I not done my homework?"
-[man] I know about Billy Tipton because I listen to Bikini Kill
and they shout out Billy Tipton in a long list of important people
in, like, queer history in a song.
-[man] He is kind of erased from history when he was this amazing musician.
It's like, I listened to his whole album on the way here
and I was almost in tears.
[indistinct chatter]
-[man] Here we go!
-[whispering inaudibly]
-[man] Is there any-- I couldn't find any footage of him.
-[man] There's pictures!
-[man] There's pictures but no-- no footage.
-[man] 'Cause, you know, he probably was not on testosterone.
-[man] Testosterone wasn't-- wasn't around.
-[man] Back then? -[man] I don't know.
-I'm auditioning for the role of Billy.
-This is my audition for Billy Tipton.
-Auditioning for Billy.
-This is Billy.
-And I'm here for the role of Billy.
How would I summarize the story of Billy Tipton?
He was a trans masculine jazz musician.
Pretty simple.
-[Mike] The first phrase that always comes to my mind is
"the gentleman's gentleman."
You know, just, uh...
the consummate professional and the gentleman's gentleman.
-The first time that I learned about Billy Tipton
was probably 2003 or 2004.
Um...
just before I started my medical transition,
I was doing a ton of research at that-- at that point.
And so I wanted to learn about, uh,
my ancestors that-- essentially that came before me.
-In a way, Billy has been with me,
um, in sort of the background
before my transition.
And thinking about him again from the place of being a trans man
was very interesting for me, because I think I had held him,
um, you know, in-- in just a sort of general context
of queerness prior to that.
-[Stephan] Billy Tipton.
There are many stories for Billy Tipton. I will give you one.
Billy Tipton, uh, was born-- let's say was born--
Was assigned female at birth.
Oklahoma City, grew up there.
Was white.
Loved jazz.
Was given piano lessons, uh, as a small person from a woman,
knew the Tea gardens, who were sort of a jazz family--
A white jazz family.
-Oklahoma was this musical crossroads.
It's like from the New Orleans jazz world to Chicago,
um, there were a lot of people who went through Oklahoma
in the 19-teens and '20s and '30s.
-[Stephan] The story goes that at this point in time,
Billy Tipton starts wearing men's clothing
because everybody's wearing men's clothing,
and so just to sort of fit in with the band,
that's the only reason.
This is how-- this is how the story is written.
Then, something happens where Billy Tipton decides to
basically make a break and then present himself as-- as male full-time.
-I'm gonna walk in a little, if that's okay.
-[woman] Yeah, yeah, use the space however you want.
If you want a chair, just let us know.
We can change things up.
Whenever you're ready.
-Okay, great, thanks.
[clears throat]
[sighs]
Hey, I saw your ad in The Oklahoma Herald.
I can play.
-[woman] You can play what?
-Saxophone, piano...
- I saw your ad in The Oklahoma Herald.
I can play!
-[woman] You can play what?
-Saxophone, piano...
-[woman] All right, what band are you with?
-I'm between bands right now, but...
I'm looking to expand.
And I could read music!
-[woman] Have you even seen the inside of a club?
-Yeah, my mom works in one and since I'm the only man around here,
I'm helping-- I'm helping her out.
-My ma works in one, so since |I'm the only man around,
I'm helping out.
-This is the '40s, it's the war,
so there are a number of all-women big bands that are happening.
If Billy Tipton had wanted to be a woman in a big band,
this is the time to do it because it is possible.
But Billy Tipton does not do that.
Billy Tipton becomes what we would call a "regional jazz musician,"
tours around in big bands and then in smaller combos.
He's doing well for himself.
He's a successful regional jazz musician.
He was part of a particular musical ecosystem,
wherein we need musicians who played at Elks Lodges,
who played at Air Force bases, and who played at nightclubs
for people who, after work on a Saturday night or a Friday night,
want to go out dancing.
And he was one of those many bands that did that.
And he did that quite well.
-[man] Now, number 16 on our program tonight, with Billy on a vocal,
it's "The Best Things in Life are Free."
♪"The Best Things in Life are Free" by The Billy Tipton Trio♪
-[Billy] ♪The moon belongs to everyone♪
♪The best things in life are free...I
-[Mike] When we would talk about the old days and where he had been
and how it's changed over the years,
you know, going into a town, arriving early in the morning,
setting up in the radio station, playing your music to promote the show
that you were gonna do that night, you know,
trying to get as many people to come out as possible, uh, play the show,
go to the after-hours club,
play the real music with all of the other musicians that were in town doing the same thing,
and then move on along to another town.
-[woman] I liked the Billy attitude.
-[Amos] Yeah. -[woman] That was really cool!
[laughs]
-It's hard to get a gig as a-- I'm a musician,
so I'm-- I'm-- I always go into it like
"Ah, I need this gig!"
You know? Like... [laughs]
So, I relate-- I relate to it. [laughs]
-When I was younger, I liked to perform for, like, family and stuff,
but, uh-- like as a kid.
And then as I started my transition,
I kinda didn't really see a path as an--
For an actor, unfortunately, at the time, I really didn't see anyone in TV and film,
um, that was trans and acting, so I didn't really think |--
it would be a possibility or something I could pursue.
-[woman] Welcome!
-Hello!
-[man] How's it going? -Pretty good.
-[woman] Marquise, if you can...
tap into your 18-year-old self who's walking into his first job ever,
kind of tap into some of that nervousness.
-[sighs]
Okay.
Yeah, this would be very er-- early on for Billy,
since he only...
has been walking in his truth since 19,
so this would be very early on.
Maybe he probably just got his first couple of checks
from the other job that he was doing so he could buy male clothes
so he could walk into this audition.
Okay.
Hold on a second.
Well, I saw you ad in The, uh, Oklahoma Herald.
I can play.
-[man] You can play what?
-[Marquise] Saxophone, piano...
-[man] What band are you with?
-Uh, I'm-- I'm in between bands.
I'm looking to expand.
And I read music, too!
-[man] Have you even seen the inside of a club?
-Well, my ma works at one.
Since I'm the only man around, I'm helping her out.
-[man] You're a kid.
-Well, you got a Conway.
Well, if I can't make her sing, the show's free.
-[Stephan] He makes two albums as an independent musician.
He's got more opportunities.
He opens for some bigger names like Billy Eckstine.
-In 1958, Billy was offered a job - a long-term playing gig -- with Liberace.
-Which could be his ticket to the big-time.
But he says, "No," and he goes to Spokane -- it's very dramatic --
he gives it all up, his chance to, like,
have this four-record deal and to be a-- a house band in Reno, his one shot at fame.
But he gives it up. But why?
And of course, the idea being that he might be afraid of-- of being found out.
-That's very much a turning point in Billy's life
where he chose to start a family with Kitty instead of uprooting again
for perhaps one of the largest performances of his career.
-[Stephan] He is with Kitty Kelly, who had been a stripper,
and they adopt three boys.
It's this beautiful life.
And Billy becomes a talent agent.
He still plays here and then.
And then, he dies of an untreated ulcer in 1989.
-He died in his trailer with Billy Jr.
Um, I believe Billy was holding him in his arms.
Or, you know, he was with-- Billy Jr. was with Billy Sr.
In the final moments.
And after he passed away, the EMT came and that was the big reveal,
apparently -- this is the narrative that we're fed --
that the big reveal is that the EMTs come and they rip Billy's shirt open
and they're like, "Son, your-- your dad's a woman!"
Or something around those terms.
And that that's Billy Jr.'s first moment of being like,
"What!?" You know.
And then the story is released.
And no one knows.
Was it the EMT who released the story to the media?
Was it the-- the coroner?
There's a big fight about that.
Um, but really, at the moment that Billy passed away
and the moment the EMTs ripped his shirt open to try and,
you know, keep him alive, was the moment that Billy's story,
you know, became something completely different.
-So I remember when the Tipton story hit in '89.
Um...
It didn't make a huge impression on me at the time.
I mean, I-- I just thought of it as, like, "here we go again."
Like, some other person who's managed to live their life and,
uh, now they're being outed and, you know,
there's gonna be a, you know, a media circus about it.
And then people will move on to the next thing.
- I was still in high school.
And I remember it happened and it was all over the news.
And I just remember thinking, "Huh!"
Right? Like, it was a thing that you notice.
But I didn't quite know what to think about it.
There was something there that I was not,
at that point in time, ready to think about [laughs] personally.
-"A woman trying to be a man.
"Well! Of course he died. Of course [gibberish]."
That was pretty much the coverage I read about was...
he was...
he was a woman.
And he was trying to fool everybody.
And he was successful.
But he was finally found out.
That was the story in-- in the media in those days.
Why? Because there was no such thing as a trans man.
There was no word for him because as soon as you said "transsexual,"
that's impossible because that's a man who becomes --
in their words -- "a woman."
-It's such a common story, actually,
to sensationalize the-- you know,
the reveal, you know, of [gasps]!
You know, this person had those genitals but they used those pronouns...shock!
You know, horror!
In the same newspapers, you know,
over the course of many decades, in the middle of the 20th century,
you would see the same story.
It's like it was the same narrative.
It was like same turns of phrases.
It's like-- it's like that moment in 'Casablanca,'
you know, where, you know, the police officer is just like,
"I am shocked!
Shocked to find," you know, "gambling is going on in this establishment!"
You knew gambling was going on in this establishment.
It's like people know that trans people exist.
You know, it's like-- it's like we're not unknown.
It's like you-- you look at, you know,
any small to medium-size town and there's gonna be some trans person there
and somebody, like, knows that they're trans. It's like, it's a thing.
And yet the media presents it as this thing that nobody
has ever heard of, every single time.
-And whenever your story doesn't match the kind of myths that we want,
either we just re-- re-tell your story in a way
that does fit the myths or we just don't tell your story.
-[AJ] Billy Tipton.
The name might not ring a bell.
But Billy's story is one of the most intriguing you'll ever hear.
In the 1940s and '50s, Billy Tipton was a well-established jazz musician
who played the American nightclub circuit.
For a time, Billy Tipton even had a record deal,
cutting two albums with his group, The Billy Tipton Trio.
But it isn't Billy's musical talent that makes this story unique.
Instead, it's the almost inconceivable secret
Billy kept for more than 50 years that still has people
shaking their heads in disbelief,
Billy's ex-wives and children among them.
-[man] A jazzy gender-bender who,
for nearly 60 years, turned the entire world into a stage
while composing for herself a brand new life as "Mr. Billy Tipton."
-He was the perfect husband...
every woman dreams of.
-In all those years, you don't-- you don't have sex,
but at some point, in the shower, getting up in the morning--
-[Kitty] No, no.
-[Oprah] In the kitchen, somewhere--
-No.
-You would see that person, some part of him, naked!
-[Kitty] No.
-Any indication or any faking of the shape of a penis on the part of your--
-All right, except...
there was a binder...
like a rib binder, okay, for broken ribs--
-Oh, that in fact, she wore to bind breasts.
-[Kitty] Right. -What about on the bottom?
That's interesting, you still refer to she as a "he."
When we come back, we're gonna find out more about this.
-Billy is a "he!"
-Yeah, I want to ask Billy, um, growing up, fathers and sons
have a special bond where, you know,
you have football passes, baseball passes, whatever.
Did you that, first of all, and if you did, did you feel any different--
like, maybe he was more delicate than most fathers
or not rugged enough?
-Growing up, my dad did all the fatherly things
that normal fathers would do, and even more than that.
We shared a relationship that, uh-- we talked a lot.
And I got to know him and he got to know me.
♪jazzy piano music♪
-This was a photo of, um, him and his mother.
This is Billy right here.
This is, uh, his mother.
And that is his stepfather.
And this photo was taken about 1943...
during the war.
-[Chase] Can you tell me about his relationship with his parents?
-You know, there's not [sighs] a lot to tell.
He was very, um, kind of secretive about that too.
And I-- |-- I mean, you know, I guess because he--
He didn't have any relationship with his dad,
because when he started, um...
you know, went from a woman to a man
and his dad found out, his-- his dad, um,
completely black-balled him from the family.
This is the famous Duke Ellington photo.
He would hang around his clubs or find out they were going to be
playing at his clubs, so he would tell me that he would k--
Keep his ear open.
He said there was always somebody...
"Oh, so-and-so can't make it because they're sick."
Or something happened, he broke his arm, whatever.
Billy would step in and say, "I can fill his place."
-[man] I heard a rumor.
-Oh, the one about how it's time for you to retire?
Yeah, I heard that one too!
-[man] No, clown!
Duke's coming.
-To the Candlelight?
-[man] I heard a rumor.
-The one about how it's time for you to retire?
I heard that one too.
-[man] No, clown!
Duke's coming.
-[laughs]
To the Candlelight?
-Well, if he were smart, he'd get here before our last set.
See how the pros do it.
-[man] You've got something to prove to Sir Duke?
-Hey, I was just offering to take a few of the fancy solos off his hands,
give those royal fingers a rest.
-[man] Well, tonight's your lucky night, then.
-Why is that?
-[man] You can tell him yourself.
He just walked in.
-Duke Ellington?
Oh, shit!
-Oh, shit, okay.
-[man] Come on, let's go over there!
-Uh, wait, um, hold on.
Um...
Okay, I'll go over there but you-- you do all the talking, okay?
And, uh, [sighs] tell Jimmy to grab his camera.
-Trans people's survival through history was based on invisibility,
based on people's ability to either
conceal their feelings of gender dysphoria or their ability to assimilate
into society without being noticed.
You see that, like-- that people, you know,
lived an entire life as, you know,
the other gender, as it were, and were revealed postmortem
to be, you know, of the other sex.
It's scary when, like, centuries of your survival
have been based on not being seen.
-I think when people, um,
think about jazz as a-- as a genre,
as a performance, I think the first thing that probably comes to mind
is that it's a practice of improvisation.
Improvisation is actually about making and doing with whatever
it is that you've got at-hand.
So, it's ripe for thinking through kind of questions of
embodiment and the ways that we're never far from performance,
and the ways that we, um, navigate our bodies in the world.
-So I imagine this scene a couple of ways.
One: that he would kind of throw out,
uh, the joke as just kind of a throwaway, like,
pretending, um, that he is not concerned.
Or that you actually want to see maybe a little bit of hesitancy.
You know, because I-- I'm trying to imagine this, at this point, he...
[sighs]
Where is this point in his life?
This is 1954.
-[woman] He's in his m-- mid-30s.
-He's 35. -[woman] Yeah.
-So he's 35 years old.
He's been living male since...
14.
Well, excuse me, 19. Since 19.
Oh, this is a long time.
And so this moment, he's met with "Heard a rumor..."
You know, what that could feel like-- I mean the moment that I read it,
my heart was in my asshole.
Immediately, I was like, "Oh my God!"
like, "Is this the moment?!
Is this gonna happen?!"
And then it doesn't.
Um, do you want to see a little bit of playing with that, or...?
-[Amos] Yeah, I never even thought of that!
-I'm just saying, I'm like--
-"I've heard a rumor," that's amazing.
-[woman] Yeah.
-You know, 1954, you're a trans guy,
you-- you know, he's clearly-- his intention is not for people
to be seeing him as female at all, regardless of Diane Middlebrook.
-[woman] Right.
-And what she has to say, anyway.
-[woman] Right.
-Okay. Okay.
Sorry, 'cause I don't know-- I don't know if you were feeling
that or what's going on but--
-[man] That's exactly what I thought, actually,
before I actually continued on reading the scene, so...
- I never even thought of that. -Okay, I'm ready when you are.
-Hey, I heard a rumor.
-The one about how it's time for you to retire?
Yeah, I heard that one too.
-[man] No, clown!
Duke's coming.
-[scoffs] To the Candlelight?
-[man] He's gigging at the Elks Club.
Well, you know this is the spot to get a drink after two.
-Well, if he's smart he'll get here sooner, catch our final set.
See how the pros do it!
-[man] Oh, you've got something to prove to Sir Duke?
-Hey, I just offered to take over some of his fancy solos.
Give his royal fingers a rest.
-[man] Mm, well, tonight's your lucky night, then.
-Why is that?
-[man] Well, you can tell him yourself.
He just walked in.
-Duke Ellington?
Well, shit!
-[man] Come on, let's go over there!
-Wait, hold on, now!
I'll go...
but you do all the talking.
Tell Jimmy to get his camera.
-The voice is such an important, not only metaphor,
but actual physical thing.
When people say "Have you found your voice?
Like, do you have a voice?
Are you silenced?"
All these questions all-- are all about can a person say who they are?
And you say who you are with your voice.
Some people will say you can do it musically as well.
But the ability to articulate who you are is so fundamentally important
and with-- for anyone.
But with trans people, this becomes really tricky.
-[man] I could talk, like, down here all the time but, like,
it just doesn't feel natural to me.
I feel like I'm, like, falling asleep.
-It could damage your-- -[man] Yeah, yeah.
You're supposed to talk, like, where it feels natural.
-[man] You're a singer. -Sort of, yeah.
My voice still squeaks!
It keeps dropping so I can't get used to it.
-That's standard for anyone going through puberty, like, cis guys too.
-[man] I still am, like, trying to make my voice sound deeper all the time. [laughs]
I made it. [laughs]
-We like to think that you can always tell, right?
But clearly, there's anxiety if you look at the history of media.
There's anxiety that trans people can fool you,
that your eyes can be deceived.
So, there's a whole history of media where you see people
and you don't realize that they're trans.
And then something gives it away.
And what is it that gives it away?
It's one of two things:
either they get undressed and you see their naked body.
But more often than not, it's the voice.
-It's such a volatile and complicated thing to imagine
that we know what people's gender is from looking at them.
Um, and, you know...
hair length.
Gait. Height.
These kinds of things which, um, may be different based on,
uh, if you stepped wrong on a stair one day.
-I love your interpretation of that rumor line too
because it's a question about passing.
It's a question about how you were reading yourself
versus how the room is reading you.
Always negotiating that boundary.
-I've lived on both sides of the coin, both being out and,
at periods of my life, being stealth.
And I remember, you know, those moments of, like, secrecy,
where somebody might be saying something to you and you're like,
"Shit, am I being read right now?
Are you about to out me?
Are you gonna tell me something about myself that I already know?"
You know what I mean? Like, where is this conversation gonna go?
So, that whole rumor thing was like...
"Oh my god! In 1954 ..."
First of all, I could imagine what that's like for people present day
as well as the time that I was in.
'54, I could not-- there's no way that I could imagine what that feels like.
-In terms of thinking about the kind of politics of disclosure
and the common way that we come to understand trans people in the past,
um, at the scene of their death is a very complex one
where I think, um, many would imagine that they're unsure
if they will be honored as trans people in death.
When we talk about Billy Tipton or we talk about some figures
who end up in the media, it is the retroactive titillation
about their anatomy that becomes a way for the media story
to grow and for a kind of marketplace to take shape.
-There's a real sort of obsession with the women
in the story of trans men 'cause the media doesn't really have sympathy for trans people.
They have sympathy for-- for cisgendered people.
That's the one that they're focusing on.
-But I think we also have to think about disclosure and outing,
um, as another form of harm.
Because people are no longer able to speak for themselves,
um, that harm is often masked over by questions like
"Well, what about the wife?"
Or "What about the kids?"
[phone dialing]
-[Kitty] Hello?
-[Diane] Hello Kitty, this is Diane.
Ha-- Have you had a chance to read the fax?
-[Kitty] Oh, yes.
-[Diane] Well, I'd like to hear your response.
-[Kitty] What can I tell you?
You believe I'm a liar, there's nothing I can say.
-[Diane] No, there's everything you can say.
-[Kitty] No, there's not, Diane. I told you the truth.
You're saying I didn't. Then there's nothing I can do.
-[Diane] Well, there is Kitty. If you-- If you--
-[Kitty] I didn't know! That's it, period!
You say don't argue with you, don't go away from the facts.
The facts are I didn't know.
Young Billy didn't know.
How did we react?
It blew us away!
So that's the facts.
Now, you don't believe it, so what can I tell ya?
You're gonna write a book and make me a liar, then do it!
-[Diane] I tell you, Kitty, I-- I have, on policy,
believed you from the beginning. But the--
-[Kitty] Not my policy. You're going to destroy my life, so that's fine.
-[Diane] Listen, I want to know the truth.
-[Kitty] The truth is I didn't know.
Okay, I told you I didn't know.
-[Diane] Kitty, you told me that you did not know--
-[Kitty] I didn't!
-[Diane] At the time that you notified the funeral home,
Don Ball, you called him on the night that Biddy-- Billy died
and asked for his body to be removed from the funeral home.
-[Kitty] No, I just asked if they could-- if they could have--
If he could take B-- Billy's body--
-[Diane] And it was--
-[Kitty] I don't know I-- it's so confusing, that whole thing.
-[Diane] It was at that time, however,
that you told Don Ball -- and there are-- are a couple of people
who know this -- that Billy was a woman and that you--
-[Kitty] No, I didn't! I didn't tell Don, he told me!
Now, I don't know where you're getting this,
but if you're gonna believe everybody else, fine!
Young Billy told you that he saw my reaction that I didn't know.
I searched you out because I knew that you were
supposed to be a person of character.
Whatever your reason is, Diane, I can't stop you.
You've got the power and you know it.
Now, you can create me any way you want to.
I can't stop you.
How sad for me.
How sad for my husband.
How sad that the world is gonna know me through your eyes
and not the truth.
-Diane Middlebrook's' 'Suits Me: The Double Life of Billy Tipton'
becomes the text, right?
This is the-- the official text of Billy Tipton's life.
And as a journalist, she knows how to do her research.
She researches everywhere. She goes all over.
She finds his, uh-- people from his childhood.
I mean, she does-- she does the story.
And I think that she does it, um...
well...
asterisk.
Kitty Tipton chose her because she thought that she would
tell the story the way that Kitty Tipton wanted it told.
So we have to know that this story is going to be--
This biography has multiple lenses already on it.
Her point-of-view was not "Wow, how would I feel had I been Billy Tipton?"
Her point-of-view was "Wow,
how would I feel had I been Kitty Tipton?"
-[sighs] Diane Middlebrook's "Suits Me: The Double Life of Billy Tipton'
was probably one of the most excruciating things
I personally have had to sit through.
The level of disrespect alone through the title is sheer comedy.
It's a mock.
I mean, literally just reading the title, I'm like,
"You gotta be kidding me. I could only imagine what is in these pages."
And sure enough...
I mean, the amount of flip-flopping and back-and-forth
and pronoun usage alone is enough to throw anyone off.
It's important that the research is there that she's done on her own.
I mean, don't get me wrong, there was tons of information
that I found to be very useful...
minus her own opinion.
She could have left it to herself.
-So, Billy Tipton is a way into the story of a-- of a musician's life,
on the road in the '30s when music meant a lot.
Partly because he was a better musician than most of
the musicians he was playing with, he could assume leadership positions.
And he could also explore the new field of jazz,
which was utterly dominated by men.
Women were absolutely excluded from it unless they married into it
like some-- some jazz musicians, uh, female jazz musicians did.
And the decision to dress as a guy just strikes me as,
um, ev-- evidence of how confident she was in herself.
That is that she-- she knew what she wanted, which was to play music.
She knew that she couldn't play music of the kind
she wanted to do if she was a female.
So, she solved the problem by becoming a guy.
[laughs] And just-- that was it.
-There was this sense of excitement about--
It's like, "Here's a well-known biographer who's a professor at Stanford
and she's taking this very seriously and even if she doesn't get it,
you know, 100 percent, it's gonna be positive
and it's gonna raise the profile of the issue, and, uh..."
It-- It was more like "She might not get it right
but we're being taken seriously."
I mean, she thought of Billy Tipton as, like, because he was female-bodied,
it's like, she's a woman who's engaged in a form of deception.
And m-- maybe, you know, like, maybe there was a legitimate reason
to do this bad thing of lying to people, you know, let's figure it out.
I found it a kind of emotionally violent book to read.
It's like, I felt like, "I am reading very well-heeled,
very polite transphobia."
-I was contacted by Diane Middlebrook's research assistant
as she was, uh, preparing to write Billy's story.
And Diane really wanted to know mostly about "What is FTM" --
as the language of the day -- "FTM experience like?"
There are trans men who are upset by any mention that Billy
might have been doing this just to find work.
I-- and, first, personally, I don't believe that at all.
- I did read Diane Middlebrook's book,
um, 'Suits Me.'
And you know, at the time when I read that --
so, I'm like maybe 20 max -- I was so inundated by cis culture, right?
Like, I had no other way of thinking.
I knew myself to be this kind of mix of things.
I knew that I was a-- a "he" and what everybody else thought was a "she,"
and I knew that there was, you know,
this secrecy, this huge secrecy about it for myself
because if-- if I-- the one time that I ever tried to tell anybody about it,
I was shut down so fast I didn't --
so I just kind of had to live with this, like, knowledge of myself.
And so the confusion in her book, right, also made sense to me.
Although I would have never called myself an "ambitious woman."
-One of the-- the core and central stories of trans people
is that trans people are liars, that they aren't who they say they are.
And this particular narrative of trans deceit is generally used
to justify violence against trans people.
And one of the main struggles and sort of points of activism
is to challenge this notion of the trans deception.
To say, "No, no, we are not lying to you about who we are.
We are who we are."
If-- if I say to you that I'm a man, I'm not lying.
And I'm not really a woman. I actually am a man.
-[Diane] Kitty, have you ever imagined what Billy must have thought
about what you would think when his truth emerged after--
-[Kitty] Yeah. I do.
-[Diane] And he expected you to understand it, I guess.
-[Kitty] Yes.
-[Diane] In the way that you have.
-[Kitty] Yes.
Because they asked me a question:
if you had known, would you have stayed with Billy?
And my automatic truth was "No."
But I would have listened and tried to understand.
But I could not have lived with Billy
because Billy would have expected me to live with the lie and to lie to people.
-[Diane] Mm-hm.
-[Kitty] So, no.
Do I understand?
Yes.
Do I approve of what Billy did to the children?
No.
Or why Billy did it?
No.
-[Diane] Tell me, is it your analysis that the reason the--
That John and Scott became so rebellious
was because they didn't have a strong, masculine presence in Billy?
-[Kitty] Yes. -[Diane] Is that your analysis?
-[Kitty] Yes, it's-- it's very simple--
-[Diane] First time I've asked you this.
It's only been in the last, you know,
several days to be able to try to get to that layer of your analytical take on it.
-[Kitty] Yes, I know, it's positive because even Billy,
sort of a lot of things come out of me
that he really hadn't wanted to hear, and he admitted it,
I mean, again, Billy's been having to struggle
with a lot of things within himself, which is normal.
Because you gotta remember, here he was and then all of the sudden, blam!
-[Diane] Yeah.
-[Kitty] He's into this other world,
and-- and he's learning all these things and-- and his--
And this is no-- I'm not downing Billy,
but this fantasy world that Billy...
wove for this one-- -[Diane] Mm-hm.
-[Kitty] And wove around him and-- and didn't prepare him for life, unfortunately.
First of all, he was numb.
Okay?
And of course, there again, um, I took over.
Young Billy was not prepared for this.
Cruel? Yes.
I believe that that last act of Billy's was cruel...
to me. -[Diane] Mm-hm.
-[Kitty] Okay, and to Billy.
-[Kitty] Uh...
deliberately cruel?
I don't know.
I don't think so.
♪moody piano♪
- I have no anger about anything that happened...
because I understand that he...
his love of something...
is why he did what he did.
-[Billy Jr.] And here we are.
It took me a long time to, um, come to grips with things.
But the more I researched about him and about the family,
and then we-- we heard from his brother and--
And found out a little bit more,
and then we decided-- me and Kitty decided
"Okay, well, let's just write this book because it's such a phenomenal thing,
that way people,” you know...
And so we did and-- and the book writer went out and--
And did a lot of research and--
And discovered so many things and let us know about it.
And when I realized that-- what exactly had transpired,
um, you know, I-- I-- I wasn't really mad at him.
I just, um...
I just started understanding.
It's like, "Oh, okay, well...
you did this, I just happened to come into your life and-- and, so..."
[deep breath]
It wasn't something that, you know, he intended to hurt anybody.
-[Chase] When you were on the talks how tour,
did you feel like people were-- telling the story like he was trying to hurt people?
Was that a way it was being framed?
-No, not really. [sighs]
It was just, um... [sighs]
You know, that people were just hooked up and obsessed with the idea that,
"Oh my goodness, well, you know, you-- you--
He was a woman, your mom's a woman,
so they must have been lesbians.
That makes you gay." [clears throat]
"That means, you know-- and you people are all sick."
-Billy Tipton was a man in every sense of the word.
He will always be a man.
He will be nothing more than a man.
Everybody who cares and loves and touched--
Even those who are throwing mud on his grave--
-You're kissing on another lady.
You might as well have been a lesbian too, then!
-It was, I thought, so hard back in the '90s
trying to sort out these conversations about who's a what.
And, you know, how do you decide?
And, um, what does it mean?
- I think it's really interesting that people conflate gender and sexuality
because I-- I don't.
And I don't think I ever have.
So it's sort of confusing for me,
actually, to-- to really understand the impulse.
But I think a lot of people who are not trans
identify, um, their-- when they think about their sexuality,
they just think about it through the lens of gender
and then their sense of gender is so binary.
If you're not straight, you're gay.
If you're gay, you're a man attracted to a man.
You know, it's all a lot of, like, to me, very rudimentary understandings of, like,
the body, um, and the relationship between the body and the gender identity
of the body and the, you know, sexual things the body does,
uh, as being literally the same thing.
Gender is both distinct from sexuality, but also in some ways
inter playing with, um, you know, h-- who-- who we are in--
In the bedroom and who we are as an identity in our bodies.
Like, they are interconnected and also completely distinct.
And that's a paradox that |-- I can hold,
but I can see that it's challenging for other people to hold.
-Before there's medical intervention, what the--
The line between a butch woman and a trans man becomes tricky,
because many people will think of, uh,
a trans man as somebody who medically transitions.
And so, therefore, the question between
"Are you and butch lesbian or are you a trans man?"
That is a question of "Is this a sexual identity, what you're doing,
or is this a gender identity, what you're doing?"
And for that question to make sense, those things need to be separate.
-Discovering my-- my gender and my sexuality so young and--
And so close in time, one of the-- the first immediate spaces
that I attempted to navigate was lesbian space.
Um...
it seemed to fit or make sense.
And I think more of that was about my attractions to women.
Um, so coming out at 14 and then having to come out again at 16,
realizing that that coming out at 16 had nothing to do
with my attractions to another human being, it was about the way that I saw myself.
- I don't think that Billy Tipton was thinking about his gender at all
the way that we are right now.
The way that I was seeing Billy's life was someone
who was living authentically, who was a private person,
who was a family man, um, who was doing what he could do
to survive during that time period.
-[Billy on recording] Merry Christmas, Grandma.
This is coming to you from the living room of your former home
in Spokane, Washington.
It's a mighty gloomy night out tonight.
We've had some snow, and it's kind of foggy out there
and it's, uh, oh, probably around 32 degrees,
which isn't too bad for this time of the year.
We've been very lucky with the weather,
and we've had, uh, some snow and some ice and some stuff
but it's all fairly mild now.
In fact, it's good pneumonia weather,
if that's any consolation to anybody.
The family seems to be okay.
Billy's had, oh, a few things happen to him
and Santa Claus is, uh, gonna be here pretty soon,
if they're good boys.
[soft coughing]
Excuse me, I've still got my cough, as you can notice,
and some of these days, I'm gonna give up these darn cigarettes.
So have a very merry Christmas and hoist one for me;
I'm not drinking this year.
Okay, who wants to talk next to grandm--
Do you want to talk to your grandmother?
Okay.
-[Kitty on recording] And now, presenting the star of the Tipton family, little Billy Tipton.
-[Billy Jr. on recording] Yes?
-[woman] You lived with your dad.
-Yes, I did.
-[woman] Okay, and dad passed on last month.
-Yes, he did.
-[woman] Now, you were with him the day that he died.
Could you tell me what happened?
-[Billy Jr.] Well, uh, the morning he...passed away,
he, uh-- he'd been ill for, uh, about a little over a month.
-[Billy Jr.] It was January 21st, 1989.
[inhales deeply]
I had woken up kind of early, um,
I don't know, maybe around eight or nine.
-I had taken care of him during this whole time and,
uh, we-- we, uh, cooperated with each other as much as we could
but, uh, the morning in particular,
he, uh-- it was quite early, around nine.
And...he asked to go sit in the living room of our home.
And so I-- I was helping him from one room to another
at that point in time for-- because he has grown so weak at this time.
And he, uh-- I got him into the living room,
sat him down, turned on the TV.
I said, uh, "I'll cook you some breakfast.
Sit there, you know, and just relax."
He had several colds on and of, uh,
pneumonia and bleeding ulcers.
-I went back and checked on him and-- and he-- he goes,
"Well, I need to go to the bathroom and-- and stuff,"
so I-- I helped him.
And at that point, I was literally picking him up,
carrying him from room to room.
Uh, he had lost so much weight.
Um, he goes, "No, I think I wanna go back to bed."
- I was really upset with him because for the main fact
is that I had asked him for... weeks to go see a physician,
a doctor, some kind of medical help.
And he simply refused everyone. -[woman] Yeah.
-I went into the kitchen and, uh,
made a phone call because... I know he'd want me to hang up
if he heard it but, um, I-- I started making a phone call and...
I looked over and...
he kind of slouched over.
And so I hung up the phone, I-- I ran over to him,
I said, "Are you okay?"
And he just kind of gave me this... a look that I had never experienced before
and collapsed into my arms.
-He gave this horrendous sigh...
and literally vomited blood all over me.
And, uh-- and basically just died right in my arms, so...
-He let out a great sigh and...passed away.
-In your arms? -[Billy Jr.] Yes. Mm-hm.
-Okay.
Can you-- can I get a producer to just bring me a Kleenex?
That's all right...
♪soft ethereal musics
-Imagine...Billy...
being terrified of not having medical care at all.
He would not see a doctor.
Trans people going into emergency rooms in the late 1980s, uh...
People were told "We don't treat people like you.
We don't understand your body.
We don't--" You know, you become someone that you are not automatically...
if you're not thrown out.
And that's-- you know, when you're an older person,
you-- and you're vulnerable because you're weaker
than you used to be and y-- and when you're ill,
you are even more vulnerable because you have no capacity to defend yourself.
That's actually one of the things that-- the idea of that
was one of the things that made me into an activist:
of being unable to stand up for myself.
What would happen to me... if people didn't understand my body?
-The degree to which trans life
seems to be sutured to mediatized representations of death,
I think it's a-- it's both a heavy and true,
um, uh, way of-- of thinking about how it is that we come to mark trans life.
-I guess my consciousness of trans masculine people
probably started with 'Boys Don't Cry.'
It was widely seen
and potentially the first time a,
you know, movie-going audience was exposed to the story of a trans guy.
-No.
-[Brandon] Why not? You're beautiful.
-Come over here.
-[C. Riley] In the winter of 1993, Brandon Teena,
along with Phil and Lisa, were murdered in a farmhouse.
It was a macabre scene.
They were murdered by two people that they knew.
These two folks who murdered them were also avowedly white supremacists.
Phil DeVine, who was also murdered that night,
was a black disabled man, um, non-trans.
Uh, and I was curious about how a figure like Phillip DeVine and Brandon Teena
would sit alongside each other.
Media representations of trans masculinity
have often centered around forms of white trans masculinity
but often involve proximities to black community, black folks,
black cultural expression.
In the space of that and the both immediate and long-term erasure of,
uh, Phillip DeVine, I was curious about all the things
that got sustained, that white supremacy is not also,
um, related to transphobia.
Um, and I think it's fascinating that,
uh, you know, Middlebrook's biography
drops a year before the kind of Brandon Teena death, uh,
becomes a kind of national conversation again.
-I was 18 in '99.
And here was an example of what it could look like
to be completely open and honest about who I was.
And that was an experience where that wasn't necessarily
Brandon Teena's case, but it made me feel like
if that's something that could potentially happen to this person,
that could also possibly happen to me.
Um...
it was scary.
-The time between '89 and '93.
This moment is an important, massively important moment sort of historically.
It's in this moment where people start sort of struggling about
how to understand these historical figures while they're trying to understand themselves.
-[sighs]
I'm looking for the announcer, Buck something.
-[woman] You're looking at him.
Can I help you?
-Yeah, I'm Billy Tipton.
Um, my band's here for the noon show.
-I'm looking for the announcer, uh,
Buck something.
-[man] You're looking at him.
Can I help you?
-I'm Billy Tipton.
My band is here for the...
the noon show.
Sorry, I-- I wasn't expecting you to be a--
-[man] Well, same to you, buddy.
-Hey, you don't gotta yell.
-[man] This ain't a yell.
This is my regular voice.
-You got any tips?
-[woman] It's all in the gut.
KFXR Radio, Buck Thomason coming to you live and in hi-fi!
-[laughs] -[woman] You hear that?
-Well, gee, I-- I sure do.
-Who is Buck?
Why is he so surprising?
-Please tell me. I'd love to know.
-[Amos] Buck, um-- Buck's father owned the radio station and Buck was
a trans masculine potentially trans man--
-Oh. -[Amos] Um, visibly trans, you could say.
-I'm obsessed with Buck Thomason,
the idea of Buck and-- and the character of Buck.
A boisterous, loud, large, um, masculine-presenting child of
a radio station owner who gave Billy his first shot.
-[Amos] This was probably the first -- and maybe only -- time
Billy interacted with another trans guy.
-Buck was, too? -[Amos] Buck.
So, like-- -Whoa.
-[Amos] The idea is that this-- -Oh!
-[Amos] Could potentially be the first time that they are
seeing someone like-- -They recognize--
I understand now. I thought-- -[Amos] They're kind of reading each other,
you know? -I see.
-[laughing] This must have really just, like,
blown his hair back, just having this exchange, so...
I was going into real-time what that might feel like for me in--
In a room like that, like "Oh, my gosh."
Seeing myself, an example of myself, you know?
- I wish there was more information on Buck.
-I mean, the most I know when eventually,
he identifies at some point as just, like, "ML."
You know? He ch-- he totally changes his name,
so we don't know, like, who he is or what happens afterwards, I don't know.
-[Amos] He disappeared. -[Marquise] Yeah.
Some of us just want to be under-the-radar.
-[Amos] Well, I feel like Billy did want to be under-the-radar.
-His-- [sighs] his experience is really interesting to me in that
he was hiding in plain sight.
It actually made him as normal and as simple as possible.
He was giving, he was kind, he was just like anyone else,
just not everyone had access to this small piece of information
that, quite honestly, was none of their business.
-He had the opportunity to be like Buck,
but he just wasn't. -[Amos] Yeah.
-That's-- that's an interesting to understand:
that it's not just 'cause he was trans that he was actually introverted.
-[Amos] Mm-hm. -[woman] Yeah.
-Well... [laughter]
Nice. [laughter]
Nice-- nice highlight.
Um, thank you for giving me that.
-[Amos] Yeah. -Uh--
-[Amos] Do you wanna try it again?
-It changes everything. -[Amos] Yeah.
-Yeah, yeah.
-Choosing to get onstage is also wanting to control how people look at you
and wanting to create something
where you require your spectator to look at you differently.
-Performances always offer this opportunity for exception,
for people to, um, step outside of the cultural norms
and-- for the sake of entertainment.
You know, trans and queer people have always found refuge in those spaces.
-I'm looking for the announcer, uh, Buck something.
-[woman] You're looking at him.
Can I help you?
-Oh...
I'm Billy Tipton.
Um, my band's here for the... uh, the noon show.
Sorry, I wasn't expecting--
-[woman] Well, same to you, buddy.
-Hey.
You don't gotta yell.
-[woman] That ain't a yell, this is my-- this is my regular voice.
-[chuckles]
Got any tips?
-[woman] It's all in the gut.
KFXR Radio, Buck Thomason coming to you live and in hi-fi.
You hear that?
-Well, gee, I sure do.
[chuckles]
-[woman] I've seen you around.
-Nah, I... think I'd remember a face like yours.
-[woman] I know the old lady you follow around, the-- the famous one.
-Ah... -[woman] I have seen her on postcards.
-[chuckling] Oh, yeah, well, hey, now, that's, uh, my better half, Non Earl.
-[woman] I need me a better half.
I only got worse halves.
-Huh.
Maybe practice being a gentleman.
-[woman] A gentleman, huh?
I guess I might need some tips.
[both chuckle]
-All right.
-[woman] Come on, this way.
-Thank you, okay, wow.
[laughs]
Ah, that was kinda hard to get through.
-[Amos] Yeah?
-Yeah, it's, uh-- yeah, I just wasn't-- yeah.
And he walks in and he feels like he's the only person in the world
who's like him, you know?
I've had that moment.
I had that moment with you.
-[Amos] Yeah? -God, I r-- I'm just realizing that.
Yeah, I saw you-- I saw your magazine,
my w-- you know my wife did all the research.
-[Amos] Oh, right. -Just stop me if I'm taking up too much time.
-[Amos] No.
-Yeah, my wife-- well, I'm-- |-- |-- I transitioned like,
uh, 12 years ago, and my wife-- I was really nervous about it
and there wasn't in-- any information out that was, like,
accessible to me, and she started watching YouTube videos
and she found 'Original Plumbing.'
And so, she was like, "Read this magazine," and I was like, "No."
I just didn't want to be trans, I didn't want to be in
the trans community, the queer community, I just didn't want any of it.
Um, and she was like, "No, you should really look at this magazine."
And I did and I saw the-- Amos and Rocco were the ones making it
and they just seemed so cool and laid-back and honest,
and the guys in it were honest.
I thought, "Okay, well, maybe I could do this.
Maybe I could be like this."
And I feel like that's what just happened. You know?
Like, he just walked in the room and saw himself.
And that's what...
God. [cries softly]
Yeah. [sighs]
So he-- so he got to have a life, you know?
And he was a little more open than he probably would have been.
You never know the impression you're gonna make
or the effect you're gonna have on people.
-[Amos] Wait, do you know what I have with me, actually?
-What? -[Amos] You made this for me.
[laughs] -Oh, Amos!
-[Amos] Do you remember that? -Yes!
-It's like this New Kids on the Block, um, thing, which I use in, you know,
my-- wherever |-- -You use it?
-Yeah. -I am so moved.
-And it says, "For Amos. Love, Alex."
And it's just so funny, 'cause we were talking about boy bands, I think.
-Uh-huh, boy bands. -Yeah, which is like all I ever talk about.
-'Cause we were '90s guys, yeah. [laughter]
-What did you think when you saw this casting call?
-What did I think when I s-- [laughs]
"Who are these crazy people?"
Um, I thought it was really cool, though.
I thought it was amazing to see that someone was taking interest
in trans masculine history, and our story,
and in someone like Billy.
Um, of course, I thought it was a little odd --
"cause clearly I am not white --
um, coming in to read for a part like Billy Tipton. But then again, at the same time,
I think the casting process looks like as many different
versions and variations of transness walking into a casting director's office.
There are so few accounts of us having access to, like,
history that belongs to us that is being created by us,
that is being curated by us, that allows our--
Our voice and our vision to be a part of the process.
-We are learning how to tell our own stories.
Trans people -- especially trans men --
have not existed in a cul-- the cultural imagination, you know, at all, really.
Uh, and so the idea of now having this process of looking back
and trying to-- trying to figure out what our lineage is,
it makes a lot of sense to be looking at-- at-- at these sorts of stories.
But to be fair to Billy, Billy probably never would have
even been a person we even knew who he was if the media hadn't made him a tabloid story.
-History tells you who matters, who counts as a human being and as a person.
So people who-- whose history has been erased,
they've gotten very good at finding people like them in the past
because you know they're there, you know it.
Imagine you're a butch lesbian, and you know that you're a butch lesbian,
you exist in the world, people make fun of you, they treat you poorly,
and you have no models, you have no history,
it's like you never existed but you know you must have.
And then, you see Billy Tipton and you think,
"Billy Tipton's just like me: another butch lesbian.
I mean, okay, Billy Tipton passed,
but I know that I'm not alone, I know that people like me existed
and they did things, they were jazz musicians,
maybe one of the greatest jazz musicians ever.
But, like, they-- they couldn't--
But no one can know about it because of this thing, right?"
So, like, you're looking for someone who exists like you
so you're not alone.
But trans people also need those figures, right?
So they're also like, "But, well, hold on a second.
You can't have all of the people, right? Because this one I think is different.
I think this one is like me, right? I think this one is mine."
And then, there are those straight women who always wanted to be jazz musicians,
but they couldn't because they were sort of shut down.
And they're like, "Well, maybe, actually, Billy Tipton is like me, right?
Maybe he's also a straight woman like me and--
And wanted to be a jazz musician just like me but--
But he went and did something about it and |-- and I couldn't do something about it."
-When I encountered Billy Tipton,
that was the first time I "encountered" trans masculinity [laughs], right?
Like, I en-- I encountered another trans man who was
living a life that I could see myself in, right?
He didn't consent to that visibility,
which sucks, but I'm grateful.
-I think most of us need to see models of things
in order to help imagine new realities.
The way that identities get framed by others really can dictate truly how you see yourself.
-It's not possible to create any kind of social changes
or justice or movement without doing something that we haven't done before.
-[Chase] Are there any downsides to visibility?
-Absolutely.
Retaliation is a downside.
Um, targeting, violence.
Was I willing [sighs] to live a life that was a lie...
you know, or did I want to live a life that made me happy,
that I could feel good about, even if it meant that I could be hurt?
The decision was pretty simple, you know what I mean?
I'd rather live my life standing up on my own two-- two feet
than being on my knees, pretending to be something that I'm not,
simply because other people are uncomfortable about my experience.
-You know, often, people would say,
"Well, uh, how do you square that Laverne Cox and-- and Janet Mock
are household names and black trans women are
the most vulnerable population to premature death?"
And I was like, "Right, those exist at the same time.
Like, visibility doesn't equal safety."
♪delicate piano♪
-I know that when he-- after he passed away,
they didn't find his bindings or anything like that around the house.
Um, so...
to me, that says the he was fully aware that he was dying
and that he was doing whatever he had to do to get rid of
things that would, um, make people question or wonder.
He was just trying to, you know, get rid of that part of-- that-- that part of him.
-It makes me wonder whether he had an inkling that he was dying
and-- and didn't want that found, you know?
If I had ever found out the secret myself, I probably would have kept it.
Um, and had he been alive, I probably would have
not talked to him about it for a while.
But eventually, I, you know-- I would have.
-[Chase] How does it feel to know that you're the last person
who's carrying the story in this way?
-Lonely, very lonely.
Gosh, [laughs] I look back on it and think,
you know, "How did I ever get through all that?" You know, so...
-[Chase] Yeah, it's so much to carry... alone.
Or to feel like you can't-- don't have a community.
-Well, you know, it-- it's...
[sighs] better now, you know?
I've answered these questions thousands of times,
but you'll ask them in-- in such a way that I'm like, "Oh, wow."
[laughs] Like, you know? So, um...
And-- and actually having to make me think of a lot of things
from back then again, you know? Just-- I roll it off, so...
-[Chase] Yeah, your-- your dad's story is very important to me.
And it makes me feel emotional and I feel very grateful to be here with you.
You know, I'm a trans person. I don't know if you know that.
And I think about-- -Really?
-[Chase] Yeah.
And I think about how lots of people in my world and my community
look to your dad as a-- a kind of hero. -Oh, really?
-[Chase] As someone who was able to live an incredibly successful and vibrant life
at a time when people didn't have any resources.
-[Scott] You know, I hope Billy Jr. doesn't feel lied to.
I hope that he's been able to see his way out of that trope
to understand that, like, his dad was a person going through a really complicated thing...
in order to be a person that he would-- I hope,
and I don't know what their-- I don't know their family situation
but in my grandest hopes could be someone that his son would look up to.
-Yeah.
There are so many things that we don't know about our family members.
Everybody has a private life.
It's okay for us to have private, internal lives and to kind of like,
um, accept that there are mysterious parts of other people.
You know, we are enigmatic, even to ourselves.
-Knowing that he was gonna die, like, was he thinking
"Now, everybody's gonna find out?"
Was he thinking "What are my kids gonna think?"
I can't imagine how unbearable it must have been to know
that, like, in your last moments--
And I suppose that's what death is all about anyway, right?
But is that-- in your last moments, to know that you...
that your life is out of your own control, right?
-Yeah.
- I started my transition in 1988.
So I had to tell my daughter "I'm gonna change."
At first, she was not happy about it, and she goes...
[sighs] "I don't want you to do it because you'll grow very tall
and I won't recognize you."
And I said, "Well, actually, I'm done growing tall, I'm not gonna get any taller.
You know, you are going to grow very tall.
You are gonna be much, much taller than you are now.
And that change will happen very slowly over time
and we will always recognize each other.
So if I go through this change, you will still-- it will still be slow and gradual
and we will always recognize each other."
♪gentle ethereal musics
-When we adopted three children, he was a doting,
loving, caring, ordinary father.
-[man] Father. -Father.
He was their father.
He gave me a warmth and a love and support
that every woman dreams of.
And this is what I got.
-At first, it was a-- it was a great shock.
I-- I-- my-- you know, I could not believe that this had happened.
But it was only moments later that...
I told myself, I said, "Hey, this-- nothing's changed."
No matter what he was, I loved him just the way he was.
-As quickly as we can get to a point where being human
is the fundamental way in which we understand trans bodies,
like, the-- the better.
I think we have to recognize that the culture has not totally
figured out how to be ready for us yet,
so those of us who are in this generation,
you know, we are in a much different place than Billy Tipton.
You know, we're-- we are-- we are public in a way that so many
trans people before us haven't been able to be
or have been able to be but have died for being, you know?
And this is a really unique period of time,
and it's still not a time where we get to have a-- a--
like, the lives that we should get to have.
We-- you know, and certainly, those of us who are not white
and who are not passing and all of-- you know,
all these other privileges that I personally have, like,
there's so much we aren't able to experience in-- in the full human spectrum,
the way to change that is for-- to shine a light back on cis people,
which is what my interest always is.
Why are you asking these questions?
Why are you so invested in-- in-- in this story,
and is there a way we can create a partnership where we can
talk about gender together, rather than,
you know, we are the metaphor and you're the status quo?
-[Marquise] Creating your own identity just for yourself,
to me, that's-- that's just uniquely what transness is,
and it looks different for every single person.
There's no cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all to say that
"This is what is trans."
I know it's probably frustrating to folks in the community too
who want to pin-point it and identify it, but I just don't believe that that is possible.
I don't think that's ever gonna be possible to do.
It's part of the problem in the first place.
Human experience is just way, way more limitless than that.
It's impossible to be 100 percent anything.
-[Chase] If you could sit down and be in conversation with
Billy Tipton right now, what kind of questions would ask him?
If you could have a conversation with Billy or ask him questions,
what would you talk about or what would those questions be?
-Hm.
I mean...
if I could have a conversation with Billy, like, I-- I'm-- I would really...
I don't think I would ask him anything about his gender identity or, you know.
I would be curious about making music.
Like, what drew him to it?
You know, I-- like, what excites him about it?
Um, and I would definitely want to, like, get confirmation,
which I think would be for-- very much there,
that, like, you know, he was a man and he also liked making music,
and those things were not actually interrelated.
I mean, maybe that helped him get an audition once to wear,
you know, men's clothes or whatever,
but I'm positive that somebody doesn't live a whole life,
um, you know, and sacrifice everything just to be able to play the piano,
as much as you might love playing the piano.
- I would just, like, want to sit at Billy Tipton's feet
and ask stories about all those, like, old-time,
you know, jazz musicians that he would've known and played with.
I would just be really fascinated as a Okie.
-Oh.
I mean, I would need to know all the tea about, like,
what people did after the show was over.
I would just be, like, "Please tell me."
I know the stories would be overflowing.
-We would also probably talk about Buck,
um, and their relationship, their friendship, "cause I just wanna know more.
Like, did he have-- was Buck a friend?
Or a frenemy?
- I think Billy Tipton was so ahead of his years.
To be bold enough and brave enough to hide in plain sight,
to-- to totally have a spotlight on him in many ways
and fulfill the dream of-- of being in the arts, in-- in music.
Like, doing that thing that way.
I'd be very curious did he ever imagine the world being this way?
-Oh, if I could be at this booth,
in this club, sitting here with Billy,
I'd want to talk about performing.
Where were you when it happened that you knew you could do that for people?
What was your favorite moments of that power?
-I'd have to ask Billy...
what's your great joy?
And... depending on what his answer was,
I would say "How does gender relate to that to you?"
I'd like to know where his neither/nor place was.
Where's the place where it doesn't fucking matter?
- I would just say, "If you want, we can just sit here.
That's it." And then maybe we would have, uh,
a hot chocolate and just sit around and just-- just-- I would be there.
I would-- maybe, what I would hope is that he--
I would let him know that he could ask me questions.
And I have a bunch of answers to those questions that he might have,
and I could-- I hope that I could-- if he asked me questions,
I could help him out in some way or make him feel a little bit better.
I could tell him about testosterone if he wanted it,
or I could tell him about some doctors who would be safe.
No one would have to know that he was talking to me.
Like, it could be a private conversation that nobody even knows about.
But I would hope that I could-- I could give him answers to his questions.
-Hm.
Interesting.
Um, it kind of blows me away that,
you know, after all these years, anybody even remembers him, you know?
-[Scott] I think for all of us, there's this need to be seen.
It's from the very beginning when we know who we are
and we say, you know, "Mommy, I'm a boy," and we get shut-down or not.
I think that so much of my not being seen as a small person
has led me to this role of somebody who desperately wants to be seen,
uh, as a-- as an adult, right? As an-- as an artist.
-Trans bodies have always existed,
and the way in which they've been understood by culture,
you know, is so much more about culture than it is about
the individual people telling the stories,
and so I sort of default now to the individual telling the story
or the source materials or documents that tell us,
like, who this person saw themselves as.
-If you exist in the present only -- and this is one of the big problems
for marginalized people whose history are-- are-- are erased --
they might say, "Oh, well, you exist now.
But you don't exist in the past.”
So you only get to be in the present, which means you get no tradition,
you get no roots, which means this place doesn't belong to you.
This place -- whatever place--
Whoever is watching the documentary is gonna be in a place,
and that place where they're at, that place was built by queer people,
by trans people, by women,
by people of color...
They built that place.
They built the roads, they built the culture,
they created the music, the fashion, the clothes, in the past to today.
But if we erase that history, then you think that you have no--
No ground to stand on, that you are rootless and homeless,
and that you are only here as a guest in a place that is not your own.
But this is our place as well.
♪Gentle uplifting music'
-[Jamison] Hello. -[Billy Jr.] How are you?
-Billy-- -Great.
-Jamison.
-[Billy Jr.] Welcome to my home. -Yeah.
-[Chase] Did you just recognize that off the top of...?
-Well, he saw my hat, and he goes--
-I saw his hat, and I said, "Well, Billy's got a, um, you know, cap just like that."
-[Chase] Yeah. -Mm-hm.
-Yeah, that is so, so interesting that it's the same maker.
-Yeah. -I mean, you know...
Almost the same kind of hat.
-What-- yeah, it's the same-- generally the same same design.
-[Billy Jr.] Yeah, same [inaudible], yeah.
-That's such a trip.
-[Billy Jr.] That is-- that is really, yeah.
-[laughs] -[Billy Jr.] Yeah.
This is a photo of him with the fedora.
-[Jamison] Yeah. -[Billy Jr.] You know.
-[Jamison] Yeah, I've seen this photo. This is in 'Suits Me,' right?
-[Billy Jr.] Yeah, mm-hm. -[Jamison] Yeah.
-[Billy Jr.] Yeah.
- I wonder if I could ask you to introduce what this is.
-Okay, sure.
This is the real photo.
-[Chase] This is one of my favorite...
-So this issue number seven of 'FTM,' which is the newsletter
for the female-to-male support group--
-Oh, really? -That a guy named Lou Sullivan was producing,
and, uh, he was struck by Billy's story and so he says...
"Tipton lived in a time when there were no gender counselors,
no doctors to prescribe hormones,
no surgeons to perform chest or genital surgery.
If you wanted to live as a man, you just had to make do with what you had.
Tipton did it on his own.
At age 74, he died as one of our grandfathers.
Men like Billy proved that we, as FTMs,
are not a bizarre recent phenomenon;
that throughout history, there have been females who knew deep down
that they were men and did whatever they had to do
to live their lives honestly."
-Mm-hm. -"Our hats off to Billy Tipton."
-Oh, wow. That's really-- that's really nice.
-Yeah.
-It's really great to talk to people that actually like what he did.
-[Jamison] Yeah. -And I've never-- until now, I have never,
ever known anything about that.
I thought I was, like, totally alone in this.
-[Jamison] Mm-hm, nope.
Hardly anybody is ever really alone in this world.
No matter how strange things are,
there's gonna be somebody who understands the experience.
-It's all hit-- hitting me, you know.
-Yeah. -How [inaudible].
-Yeah.
-There will always be resistance to our identities because we
really threaten the structures of patriarchy,
which is essentially the structure of society.
Like, you know, the whole world revolves around...
a penis.
-When you present a trans masculine person as a--
An object of desire for people of maybe all genders,
um, but certainly an object of desire for women,
I think you are undermining this sort of idea of, like, you know, only certain kinds of men,
you know, have-- have that kind of status of being desirable in that way.
And that-- and that isn't just about, then, sexuality and-- and, um, and sexiness,
that's about saying, like, "Trans men are men."
And that's a really big threat, I think, to-- to folks who wish we didn't exist.
-It's an assumption that you don't come from trans experience
and passing is somehow about fooling.
You know, "trying to pass." Pass as what?
Regular?
I don't wanna fuckin' be regular.
-One of my favorite passages in Lou's journals is he was,
you know, like 13 or 14 years old and he said,
"I'm not sure what somebody like me looks like.
But when people look at me, I want them to say,
'There's one of those people who has their own interpretation of happiness.
It's not a question about passing, you know,
and that it's not about transition from man to woman or woman to man,
it's a transition story about somebody who's unhappy
about something in their life and they figure out the way to make
themselves happy, and sometimes it involves gender
and sometimes it doesn't.
It's like, are you being your own interpretation of happiness, yes, no?
You know? And I'm always gonna be on "yes," you know?
Whatever that is.
And if you're not being your own interpretation of happiness,
it's like, why aren't you?
You know? That's on you.
♪Delicate jazz/
-[Billy on recording] The Little Pinto's running fine.
And I think we've had a little problem with the, uh, heater.
So we have to straighten that out,
but outside of that, it's got its little snow tires on and it's running real good.
Of course, the old Barracuda is forever amber, I guess; she just keeps going.
And Kiki's fine, the dogs are fine.
And everything seems to be going pretty well in the house.
We've been very, very lucky; God's been awful good to us.
So, I'll sign off for right now, and Mommy'll
have some of the boys talk to you.
But let me say we love ya and sure wish you were here with us.
Okay, light up the cigarettes!
Everybody have a go at it again!
-[Kitty on recording] All right, are you two gonna sing together?
Are you gonna sing together?
♪♪♪
♪delicate emotional music♪
♪I knew a boy who was swallowed by the sky♪
♪By the flashing lights♪
♪I knew a man who got lost in the deep dark blue♪
♪And came out alive♪
♪I knew a boy, I knew a man who looked a lot like you♪
♪I knew a time you could stand still beside♪
♪ Never rushing by ♪
♪I knew a place you could go when you had to explode♪
♪Into peace of mind♪
♪I knew a time, I knew a place that felt a lot like you♪
♪I knew a boy, I knew a man who looked a lot...♪
♪A lot like you♪
♪Oooh♪
♪Ahhh♪
♪A lot like you♪
♪Whoaaa♪
♪Ohhh, I knew a man who looked a lot like you♪
♪I knew a friend who could hold onto the flames♪
♪Keep them from burning you♪
♪I knew a smile you could see through all of the stones♪
♪That the war had thrown♪
♪I knew a smile, I knew a friend♪
♪Who looked a lot like you♪
♪I knew a boy, I knew a man who looked a lot...♪
♪A lot like you♪
♪Oooh♪
♪Ahhh♪