1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:12,458 --> 00:00:14,208 (footsteps) 4 00:00:20,416 --> 00:00:23,124 (copying) 5 00:00:26,041 --> 00:00:28,416 (printing) 6 00:00:31,416 --> 00:00:32,667 (tapping paper) 7 00:00:32,750 --> 00:00:34,249 (keys jingling) 8 00:00:37,958 --> 00:00:39,416 Okay. 9 00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:41,999 Here are the two copies, Mom. 10 00:00:42,083 --> 00:00:44,375 -Dorothy Lewis: Okay. And again, by the way... -I'm ready. 11 00:00:44,458 --> 00:00:46,041 feel free to say yuck. 12 00:00:46,124 --> 00:00:48,667 But, you know, feel free to say, "Mom, 13 00:00:48,750 --> 00:00:51,792 don't say that," okay? Okay. 14 00:00:51,875 --> 00:00:54,625 That Joseph Paul Franklin was crazy, 15 00:00:54,708 --> 00:00:56,750 there could be little doubt. 16 00:00:56,833 --> 00:00:59,458 "The New York Times" called me "The Slayer." 17 00:00:59,541 --> 00:01:02,083 I like the word, you know, the term "multiple slayer" 18 00:01:02,166 --> 00:01:04,041 better than "serial killer" anyway. 19 00:01:04,124 --> 00:01:05,291 You know what I'm saying? 20 00:01:05,375 --> 00:01:07,667 -Dorothy: Got it? Okay. -Eric Lewis: Mm-hmm. 21 00:01:07,750 --> 00:01:09,792 Dorothy: No, not 'cause he hated Jews. 22 00:01:09,875 --> 00:01:13,166 Lots of ostensibly sane people hate Jews. 23 00:01:13,249 --> 00:01:15,541 Bigotry and insanity are different. 24 00:01:15,625 --> 00:01:17,750 -(projector clicking) -At least my mother thought so. 25 00:01:17,833 --> 00:01:20,541 -Wait, can you hold on one sec? (muttering) -Yeah, do you see that? 26 00:01:20,625 --> 00:01:23,708 -Then it goes from there to my mother... -My mother seemed to know 27 00:01:23,792 --> 00:01:27,833 the names of every anti-Semite alive and dead. 28 00:01:27,917 --> 00:01:30,249 Henry Ford, Richard Wagner, 29 00:01:30,333 --> 00:01:33,291 Joe Kennedy, even Walt Disney. 30 00:01:33,375 --> 00:01:36,500 And then I have in quotes, "Not Walt Disney, Mom!" 31 00:01:36,583 --> 00:01:38,458 -Unquote, okay? Close quote. -Eric: Mm-hmm. 32 00:01:38,541 --> 00:01:40,999 Dorothy: "Yes, Walt Disney," she declared. 33 00:01:41,083 --> 00:01:44,375 Still, she took me to see "Bambi" and I cried and cried. 34 00:01:44,458 --> 00:01:47,541 Now, it goes up to the upper left-hand corner, okay? 35 00:01:47,625 --> 00:01:49,792 Dot-dot, got it? (laughs) 36 00:01:49,875 --> 00:01:52,208 The memories that come back to me 37 00:01:52,291 --> 00:01:54,958 when I'm, you know, when I'm writing. 38 00:01:55,041 --> 00:01:57,500 They're-- they have nothing to do with the case, 39 00:01:57,583 --> 00:01:59,416 but it's sort of fun. Okay, 40 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:02,208 now we're going back to, "As I write this, 41 00:02:02,291 --> 00:02:06,124 I ask myself why I agreed to examine Mr. Franklin." 42 00:02:06,208 --> 00:02:08,625 How are you supposed to act if you've killed people? 43 00:02:08,708 --> 00:02:11,291 You know? You're supposed to have blood dripping from your mouth 44 00:02:11,375 --> 00:02:13,041 and all that? Fangs? 45 00:02:13,124 --> 00:02:16,750 Dorothy: How could I be certain that I would not be prejudiced? 46 00:02:16,833 --> 00:02:20,541 Looking back in time, I think examining Mr. Franklin 47 00:02:20,625 --> 00:02:24,625 was as close as I would ever come to examining Hitler. 48 00:02:24,708 --> 00:02:26,792 Hitler has always been a mystery. 49 00:02:26,875 --> 00:02:29,792 A man responsible for the deaths of so many, 50 00:02:29,875 --> 00:02:32,458 but someone who, to the best of my knowledge, 51 00:02:32,541 --> 00:02:35,750 never personally killed anyone. 52 00:02:35,833 --> 00:02:39,625 My regret is that nobody had the chance to study him, 53 00:02:39,708 --> 00:02:41,249 to find out what made him tick. 54 00:02:42,625 --> 00:02:44,375 How did he get that way? 55 00:02:44,458 --> 00:02:47,041 Could I get that way? Could anyone? 56 00:02:47,124 --> 00:02:50,667 ♪ ♪ 57 00:02:50,750 --> 00:02:53,249 I look back on the many killers I have come to know 58 00:02:53,333 --> 00:02:55,999 over the past four decades. 59 00:02:56,083 --> 00:02:58,750 There are diagnoses I make now 60 00:02:58,833 --> 00:03:01,083 that I didn't even know existed 61 00:03:01,166 --> 00:03:03,875 because of my own ignorance, comma, 62 00:03:03,958 --> 00:03:07,166 because I didn't ask the right questions. 63 00:03:07,249 --> 00:03:10,708 (laughs) It's nice to be able to correct one's mistakes. 64 00:03:10,792 --> 00:03:15,333 More often, we probably don't even know when we make them. 65 00:03:15,416 --> 00:03:18,458 Man: Doctor, looking at the evidence in this case, 66 00:03:18,541 --> 00:03:21,375 are you able to tell us whether the defendant 67 00:03:21,458 --> 00:03:24,041 (echoing): is insane or not? 68 00:03:24,124 --> 00:03:27,249 ♪ ♪ 69 00:03:32,625 --> 00:03:35,458 (newsreel music) 70 00:03:35,541 --> 00:03:37,458 Dorothy: When I was very little, 71 00:03:37,541 --> 00:03:40,541 I remember reading about the Nuremberg Trials. 72 00:03:40,625 --> 00:03:43,708 Newsreel Narrator: In Berlin, the defendants 73 00:03:43,792 --> 00:03:45,291 are to plead guilty 74 00:03:45,375 --> 00:03:48,041 -or not guilty... -Dorothy: Lying on the carpet. 75 00:03:48,124 --> 00:03:50,667 We lived in New York, in an apartment, 76 00:03:50,750 --> 00:03:54,041 and the newspaper in front of me, 77 00:03:54,124 --> 00:03:57,375 and seeing pictures of Goebbels and Göring. 78 00:03:57,458 --> 00:03:59,708 Judge: Defendant Hermann Wilhelm Göring, 79 00:03:59,792 --> 00:04:02,166 the International Military Tribunal 80 00:04:02,249 --> 00:04:05,875 sentences you to death by hanging. 81 00:04:05,958 --> 00:04:07,625 Dorothy: I was aware that 82 00:04:07,708 --> 00:04:11,625 people were deliberately killing other people. 83 00:04:11,708 --> 00:04:13,625 And I was aware 84 00:04:13,708 --> 00:04:16,999 of my own anger and my own aggression. 85 00:04:17,999 --> 00:04:20,917 And I remember thinking, 86 00:04:20,999 --> 00:04:23,375 how come I don't kill? 87 00:04:23,458 --> 00:04:26,833 How come, when I get so angry, I don't kill? 88 00:04:28,166 --> 00:04:29,750 It's fascinated me. 89 00:04:29,833 --> 00:04:32,750 I've been horrified by the fact that 90 00:04:32,833 --> 00:04:35,999 I think any one of us, myself included, 91 00:04:36,083 --> 00:04:37,541 could become a Nazi. 92 00:04:37,625 --> 00:04:39,750 ♪ ♪ 93 00:04:39,833 --> 00:04:43,416 Maybe I went to medical school or became a psychiatrist, 94 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:46,249 in part, to learn about why. 95 00:04:46,333 --> 00:04:47,999 (bell chiming) 96 00:04:48,083 --> 00:04:50,583 Don't you ever wonder why you don't murder? 97 00:04:50,667 --> 00:04:52,875 -Alex Gibney: I do. -Yeah. 98 00:04:56,625 --> 00:04:58,999 I never planned to work with violent people, 99 00:04:59,083 --> 00:05:00,958 certainly not murderers. 100 00:05:01,041 --> 00:05:02,833 Dorothy and Narrator: I went through medical school 101 00:05:02,917 --> 00:05:05,500 in order to become a psychoanalyst. 102 00:05:05,583 --> 00:05:07,792 I saw myself in a private office, 103 00:05:07,875 --> 00:05:10,041 seated behind a supine patient... 104 00:05:10,124 --> 00:05:12,249 Narrator: listening and commenting as he struggled 105 00:05:12,333 --> 00:05:14,917 to resolve the violent internal conflicts 106 00:05:14,999 --> 00:05:16,958 between his id and his superego. 107 00:05:17,041 --> 00:05:19,833 Instead, a series of unexpected events 108 00:05:19,917 --> 00:05:24,291 drew me deeper and deeper into the study of violence. 109 00:05:24,375 --> 00:05:26,166 In the early '70s, I was working at 110 00:05:26,249 --> 00:05:28,541 the Juvenile Court Clinic in New Haven, 111 00:05:28,625 --> 00:05:31,124 examining delinquents. Most of the delinquents 112 00:05:31,208 --> 00:05:32,750 who crossed the threshold of my office 113 00:05:32,833 --> 00:05:34,166 had horrendous backgrounds-- 114 00:05:34,249 --> 00:05:36,458 car accidents, falls, burns, 115 00:05:36,541 --> 00:05:39,166 even carbon monoxide poisoning. 116 00:05:39,249 --> 00:05:40,999 A good number of the injuries 117 00:05:41,083 --> 00:05:42,625 were not caused by reckless drivers, 118 00:05:42,708 --> 00:05:46,083 broken tree branches, or overturned coffee pots. 119 00:05:46,166 --> 00:05:48,500 They were caused by parents. 120 00:05:48,583 --> 00:05:50,083 ♪ ♪ 121 00:05:50,166 --> 00:05:52,249 Gradually, I was gathering clues. 122 00:05:52,333 --> 00:05:55,458 I was discovering why one person cried in pain, 123 00:05:55,541 --> 00:05:58,291 while another lashed out in response to it. 124 00:05:59,583 --> 00:06:01,667 (siren wailing) 125 00:06:01,750 --> 00:06:04,792 I managed to get a small grant to study the prisoners on 126 00:06:04,875 --> 00:06:07,291 the Bellevue Forensic Wards. 127 00:06:07,375 --> 00:06:09,333 I examined Mark David Chapman, 128 00:06:09,416 --> 00:06:11,124 the man who shot John Lennon. 129 00:06:11,208 --> 00:06:14,416 We also saw a less famous, but more flamboyant inmate, 130 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:17,041 who cut off his father's head and penis, 131 00:06:17,124 --> 00:06:19,500 and chucked both out the window. 132 00:06:19,583 --> 00:06:22,083 It was a... colorful period. 133 00:06:22,166 --> 00:06:24,291 (hospital chatter) 134 00:06:26,667 --> 00:06:29,667 Gibney: So how'd you first start working with Dorothy? 135 00:06:29,750 --> 00:06:31,750 By accident, yeah. So, 136 00:06:31,833 --> 00:06:34,875 I saw this ad for a research assistant. 137 00:06:34,958 --> 00:06:38,833 "Juvenile delinquents," is what the ad says. 138 00:06:38,917 --> 00:06:41,375 A grant to do a project 139 00:06:41,458 --> 00:06:43,583 having to do with delinquency. 140 00:06:43,667 --> 00:06:45,375 It happened to be Dorothy. 141 00:06:45,458 --> 00:06:48,333 I happened to say, you know, I'll give it a shot. 142 00:06:48,416 --> 00:06:51,708 We hit it off, and it started everything. 143 00:06:51,792 --> 00:06:55,124 Dorothy: We became a bit of a team, working together. 144 00:06:55,208 --> 00:07:00,583 And we saw so many children at Bellevue. 145 00:07:00,667 --> 00:07:03,625 Narrator: A study of the patients on our children's psychiatric ward 146 00:07:03,708 --> 00:07:07,500 revealed that of 55 children admitted in one year, 147 00:07:07,583 --> 00:07:10,249 21 had been homicidal. 148 00:07:10,333 --> 00:07:14,333 One child was admitted after trying to strangle her sister. 149 00:07:14,416 --> 00:07:18,541 Another set fire to the couch on which his mother slept. 150 00:07:18,625 --> 00:07:21,124 A 4-year-old held a knife to his mother's throat. 151 00:07:21,208 --> 00:07:24,458 -(flames burning) -(children chattering) 152 00:07:24,541 --> 00:07:26,249 We tried to look at the variables. 153 00:07:26,333 --> 00:07:29,166 Was there any difference between 154 00:07:29,249 --> 00:07:31,541 the homicidal young children, 155 00:07:31,625 --> 00:07:33,375 and the ones who were on 156 00:07:33,458 --> 00:07:37,166 the psychiatric ward, but had not been homicidal. 157 00:07:37,249 --> 00:07:39,708 And we found that 158 00:07:39,792 --> 00:07:42,833 the homicidal kids were much more likely 159 00:07:42,917 --> 00:07:44,792 to have been abused, 160 00:07:44,875 --> 00:07:46,792 and they were much more likely 161 00:07:46,875 --> 00:07:49,958 to have signs of organic impairment, 162 00:07:50,041 --> 00:07:52,917 brain dysfunction. 163 00:07:52,999 --> 00:07:56,208 Jonathan Pincus: I was an ambitious academic neurologist at the time, 164 00:07:56,291 --> 00:07:58,625 on the faculty at Yale. 165 00:07:58,708 --> 00:08:02,041 I thought that there was nothing 166 00:08:02,124 --> 00:08:05,291 neurologically wrong with violent people. 167 00:08:05,375 --> 00:08:08,166 She convinced me to participate in the study. 168 00:08:08,249 --> 00:08:09,792 What's the relationship between 169 00:08:09,875 --> 00:08:12,958 the brain damage and the behavior? 170 00:08:13,041 --> 00:08:16,458 Dorothy: What we saw was if you have battered a child, 171 00:08:16,541 --> 00:08:18,875 shaken it, knocked it against the wall, 172 00:08:18,958 --> 00:08:23,208 then you could often see little hemorrhages in the brain. 173 00:08:23,291 --> 00:08:25,999 Sometimes, that distinguished 174 00:08:26,083 --> 00:08:28,083 the super-aggressive kids 175 00:08:28,166 --> 00:08:31,958 from the psychiatrically ill but not aggressive kids. 176 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:34,458 ♪ ♪ 177 00:08:34,541 --> 00:08:39,333 I had written an article in a psychiatric journal, 178 00:08:39,416 --> 00:08:43,041 and Diane Sawyer, her assistants had read it, 179 00:08:43,124 --> 00:08:45,792 and they called me and she wanted to interview me. 180 00:08:45,875 --> 00:08:48,958 We're going to take a closer look at violent children, 181 00:08:49,041 --> 00:08:50,917 -teenagers or... -Dorothy: It's the first time 182 00:08:50,999 --> 00:08:52,999 I'd ever been on television. 183 00:08:53,083 --> 00:08:55,833 Diane Sawyer: Dr. Lewis, thank you very much for coming this morning. 184 00:08:55,917 --> 00:08:58,083 It's a fascinating study, and a pioneering one, 185 00:08:58,166 --> 00:08:59,333 as I understand it. 186 00:08:59,416 --> 00:09:01,792 We did a study of the medical histories 187 00:09:01,875 --> 00:09:03,208 from hospital records... 188 00:09:03,291 --> 00:09:06,625 Dorothy: I talked about the brain dysfunction 189 00:09:06,708 --> 00:09:09,708 and the history of abuse that a lot of 190 00:09:09,792 --> 00:09:13,667 -the violent kids had. -46% had major neurological problems... 191 00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:16,583 Either that day or the next day, I got a call 192 00:09:16,667 --> 00:09:20,249 from Dick Burr, just an incredible public defender 193 00:09:20,333 --> 00:09:23,750 and he said, "I saw you on the news yesterday." 194 00:09:23,833 --> 00:09:25,667 Dick Burr: She was talking about how 195 00:09:25,750 --> 00:09:27,958 you can't begin to evaluate somebody 196 00:09:28,041 --> 00:09:30,541 who's committed a violent crime unless you have 197 00:09:30,625 --> 00:09:32,958 a really thorough and complete life history. 198 00:09:33,041 --> 00:09:35,333 -Here's a family history... -Burr: And at that point 199 00:09:35,416 --> 00:09:37,583 in the death penalty defense community, 200 00:09:37,667 --> 00:09:40,541 we had always thought mental health was important, 201 00:09:40,625 --> 00:09:42,458 but we didn't understand it. 202 00:09:42,541 --> 00:09:45,166 Dorothy: He said, "I have a client 203 00:09:45,249 --> 00:09:47,041 on death row here in Florida." 204 00:09:47,124 --> 00:09:49,541 Burr: We had a case, William Elledge... 205 00:09:49,625 --> 00:09:51,708 ♪ ♪ 206 00:09:51,792 --> 00:09:54,083 that I was the primary lawyer on, 207 00:09:54,166 --> 00:09:57,249 moving into the state post-conviction process. 208 00:09:57,333 --> 00:09:59,500 Dorothy: "Would you be willing to come down to death row 209 00:09:59,583 --> 00:10:01,041 and examine him?" 210 00:10:01,124 --> 00:10:04,083 Burr: And she came and helped us and taught us. (laughs) 211 00:10:04,166 --> 00:10:06,208 -(prison chatter) -Dorothy: Sure enough, 212 00:10:06,291 --> 00:10:09,166 the guy had brain dysfunction 213 00:10:09,249 --> 00:10:13,583 and a history of hideous abuse. 214 00:10:13,667 --> 00:10:16,750 A few weeks later, I saw I got a call again. 215 00:10:16,833 --> 00:10:18,667 "We have another guy." 216 00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:21,249 His name was Nollie Martin. 217 00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:25,083 Apparently, someone had run over his head with a car, 218 00:10:25,166 --> 00:10:27,792 and there was a dent in his head. 219 00:10:27,875 --> 00:10:29,625 So, I wrote it up. 220 00:10:29,708 --> 00:10:32,958 A colleague of mine said to me, 221 00:10:33,041 --> 00:10:35,166 "Dorothy, think of it this way. 222 00:10:35,249 --> 00:10:36,958 "If you put your finger in a haystack 223 00:10:37,041 --> 00:10:40,458 "and you get tapped by a needle, that's by chance. 224 00:10:40,541 --> 00:10:44,124 "But if you put your finger in the haystack a second time, 225 00:10:44,208 --> 00:10:45,999 and again you're stuck by a needle," he said, 226 00:10:46,083 --> 00:10:48,541 "there are a lot of needles there." 227 00:10:48,625 --> 00:10:52,041 Burr: When a murder happens, you wonder why. 228 00:10:52,124 --> 00:10:55,416 I've always been of the view that there are some reasons 229 00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:57,541 that they happen. Not because people 230 00:10:57,625 --> 00:10:59,750 are inherently bad or evil. 231 00:10:59,833 --> 00:11:01,792 I don't believe in evil. (laughs) 232 00:11:01,875 --> 00:11:04,583 Anybody who pulls a trigger and squeezes a life out of somebody 233 00:11:04,667 --> 00:11:06,750 for the calculated reason of starting a race war 234 00:11:06,833 --> 00:11:08,999 where other people would be killed is evil. 235 00:11:09,083 --> 00:11:12,750 Well, evil is a religious concept. 236 00:11:12,833 --> 00:11:14,500 It's not a scientific concept. 237 00:11:14,583 --> 00:11:16,833 And what society wants to do 238 00:11:16,917 --> 00:11:19,917 with a person like that is up to society. 239 00:11:19,999 --> 00:11:22,792 But, it at least helps to know what motivates 240 00:11:22,875 --> 00:11:25,917 a serial killer or what motivates a... 241 00:11:25,999 --> 00:11:29,375 -Right, hatred. That's what's motivating it. -Well, it's more than that. 242 00:11:29,458 --> 00:11:30,833 There's much more than that. 243 00:11:30,917 --> 00:11:33,166 Burr: You know, we all sort of just saw the light, 244 00:11:33,249 --> 00:11:36,500 and began to realize from working with Dorothy that 245 00:11:36,583 --> 00:11:40,333 we had to get a lot more information about people's lives. 246 00:11:40,416 --> 00:11:42,124 Yeager: We had defense attorneys 247 00:11:42,208 --> 00:11:44,124 from different parts of the country start to call us 248 00:11:44,208 --> 00:11:46,958 as a team to see their tough cases. 249 00:11:47,041 --> 00:11:49,999 These tended not to be open-and-shut cases 250 00:11:50,083 --> 00:11:53,041 of people doing violent things. These were puzzles. 251 00:11:53,124 --> 00:11:56,875 I have now seen 22 serial killers. 252 00:11:56,958 --> 00:11:59,208 A lot of other plain-old killers, 253 00:11:59,291 --> 00:12:02,208 (chuckle) but 22 serial killers. 254 00:12:02,291 --> 00:12:04,375 And what we tend to find is 255 00:12:04,458 --> 00:12:08,208 when you couple either a predisposition to psychosis 256 00:12:08,291 --> 00:12:11,208 and/or some kind of brain dysfunction, 257 00:12:11,291 --> 00:12:15,625 with a history of horrible early ongoing abuse, 258 00:12:15,708 --> 00:12:17,833 you get a super-dangerous person. 259 00:12:19,166 --> 00:12:22,583 And what is fascinating is you can find 260 00:12:22,667 --> 00:12:25,208 what were the social, the psychological, 261 00:12:25,291 --> 00:12:28,792 the biological forces that came together to create 262 00:12:28,875 --> 00:12:31,875 this murderous human being. 263 00:12:32,999 --> 00:12:35,833 It's like being a detective, which I love. 264 00:12:35,917 --> 00:12:38,041 I truly love it. 265 00:12:38,833 --> 00:12:41,792 (birds chirping) 266 00:12:45,625 --> 00:12:48,833 (coffee machine humming) 267 00:12:48,917 --> 00:12:51,917 -(cafe chatter) -Dorothy: Thanks so much. 268 00:12:51,999 --> 00:12:54,750 -Thank you. Yeah. -Barista: You're welcome. 269 00:12:54,833 --> 00:12:56,500 (cars honking) 270 00:13:01,541 --> 00:13:04,833 (elevator bell dings) 271 00:13:04,917 --> 00:13:08,416 Teacher: The only way to approach a drawing is to feel free. 272 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:10,416 If you have that freedom in you, 273 00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:12,208 it's gonna show in your drawing. 274 00:13:12,291 --> 00:13:14,083 As long as we keep in mind, 275 00:13:14,166 --> 00:13:16,792 stepping back, looking at what we're doing, 276 00:13:16,875 --> 00:13:19,249 and then going back and making changes. 277 00:13:19,333 --> 00:13:21,124 Changes are very important. 278 00:13:21,208 --> 00:13:23,083 I always say to the students, 279 00:13:23,166 --> 00:13:25,875 remember those first drawings you were doing, 280 00:13:25,958 --> 00:13:27,958 and then you were unhappy with them? 281 00:13:28,041 --> 00:13:30,291 Those drawings allows you actually 282 00:13:30,375 --> 00:13:33,249 to do what you have been doing now. 283 00:13:33,333 --> 00:13:36,291 And so, that's why I always talk about the process 284 00:13:36,375 --> 00:13:38,291 and making changes all the time... 285 00:13:38,375 --> 00:13:41,625 ♪ ♪ 286 00:13:41,708 --> 00:13:43,458 Dorothy: Any case I've worked on, 287 00:13:43,541 --> 00:13:45,458 I came as a blank slate, 288 00:13:45,541 --> 00:13:47,875 and saw whatever I saw. 289 00:13:49,333 --> 00:13:53,541 Over time, the complete picture came to light. 290 00:13:57,917 --> 00:14:01,249 Early in my career, I evaluated a woman, 291 00:14:01,333 --> 00:14:02,792 Marie Moore. 292 00:14:02,875 --> 00:14:06,166 She lived in an apartment with her 14-year-old daughter, 293 00:14:06,249 --> 00:14:09,208 and her daughter's boyfriend. 294 00:14:09,958 --> 00:14:11,958 The boyfriend was 295 00:14:12,041 --> 00:14:14,541 a particularly sadistic kind of person. 296 00:14:14,625 --> 00:14:17,458 -(woman giggling) -Somehow, Marie got 297 00:14:17,541 --> 00:14:19,667 sexually involved with the boyfriend. 298 00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:22,958 And a girlfriend of her daughter came over, 299 00:14:23,041 --> 00:14:26,541 -and Marie and the boyfriend -(door creaking) 300 00:14:26,625 --> 00:14:30,333 -took her captive. -(shuts) 301 00:14:30,416 --> 00:14:32,958 They kept her naked, just in diapers. 302 00:14:33,041 --> 00:14:35,333 -(cuffs click) -They handcuffed her 303 00:14:35,416 --> 00:14:37,917 and toe-cuffed her to the floor. 304 00:14:37,999 --> 00:14:40,875 They shoved things into every orifice 305 00:14:40,958 --> 00:14:43,124 that a person has. 306 00:14:43,208 --> 00:14:46,958 And then, one day, the 14-year-old boy 307 00:14:47,041 --> 00:14:49,667 dragged her over to the bathroom 308 00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:51,124 and knocked her head 309 00:14:51,208 --> 00:14:53,333 -(thud) -against the tub and killed her. 310 00:14:53,416 --> 00:14:54,583 (dripping) 311 00:14:54,667 --> 00:14:58,041 The body was discovered and they were arrested. 312 00:14:58,124 --> 00:15:00,041 (police siren, radio chatter) 313 00:15:00,124 --> 00:15:03,041 The boy ratted on Marie. 314 00:15:03,124 --> 00:15:05,500 It was the boy who had actually killed her, 315 00:15:05,583 --> 00:15:08,917 but, being a juvenile, he was offered a plea, 316 00:15:08,999 --> 00:15:11,291 and Marie was tried 317 00:15:11,375 --> 00:15:13,500 -for this murder. -(phone ringing) 318 00:15:13,583 --> 00:15:16,750 I got a call from an attorney asking me 319 00:15:16,833 --> 00:15:20,249 whether I would do an evaluation of Marie. 320 00:15:20,333 --> 00:15:23,667 The lawyer said something to me about how 321 00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:26,583 he thought she was a multiple. 322 00:15:26,667 --> 00:15:29,708 Well, I had been trained that there was no such thing. 323 00:15:29,792 --> 00:15:31,875 ♪ ♪ 324 00:15:31,958 --> 00:15:34,500 I went to see her, 325 00:15:34,583 --> 00:15:36,583 and she reminded me of me. 326 00:15:36,667 --> 00:15:40,999 I was wearing big glasses and she was wearing big glasses. 327 00:15:41,083 --> 00:15:42,917 We were talking and I asked her 328 00:15:42,999 --> 00:15:45,958 had anyone ever bothered her sexually, 329 00:15:46,041 --> 00:15:47,249 and she said, 330 00:15:47,333 --> 00:15:49,500 "No! No! No! 331 00:15:49,583 --> 00:15:52,667 Absolutely not!" 332 00:15:53,875 --> 00:15:55,875 I had been told that 333 00:15:55,958 --> 00:16:00,291 people around her said that she changed. 334 00:16:00,375 --> 00:16:03,792 That sometimes, her voice became gruff, 335 00:16:03,875 --> 00:16:06,875 and she wanted to be called Billy. 336 00:16:06,958 --> 00:16:10,541 So I asked her about this, and she said, 337 00:16:10,625 --> 00:16:13,416 "Well, people tell me that I get that way, 338 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:15,124 "that I become like a boy, 339 00:16:15,208 --> 00:16:18,750 but I don't remember it. I don't think so." 340 00:16:18,833 --> 00:16:20,208 ♪ ♪ 341 00:16:20,291 --> 00:16:22,667 It was getting to be about 5:00, 342 00:16:22,750 --> 00:16:24,708 and the investigator 343 00:16:24,792 --> 00:16:26,833 stuck his head in the door, and he said, you know, 344 00:16:26,917 --> 00:16:29,667 "We have to go." And I said, "Marie, 345 00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:33,625 I have to stop now, but I'll be back to see you." 346 00:16:33,708 --> 00:16:35,583 And she said, "Don't go." 347 00:16:35,667 --> 00:16:38,124 She said, "There's something I have to tell you." 348 00:16:38,208 --> 00:16:41,458 In just that tone. And so, I sat. 349 00:16:42,124 --> 00:16:44,708 And, uh, sat. 350 00:16:44,792 --> 00:16:46,500 And I said, "You know, Marie, 351 00:16:46,583 --> 00:16:49,124 I really have to go." 352 00:16:49,208 --> 00:16:51,166 And then I gathered up my papers, 353 00:16:51,249 --> 00:16:54,166 and I turn my back and put my hand 354 00:16:54,249 --> 00:16:56,999 on the doorknob, and I hear 355 00:16:57,083 --> 00:17:00,458 behind me a voice that said... 356 00:17:00,541 --> 00:17:03,208 (gruffly): "Don't go." 357 00:17:03,291 --> 00:17:07,333 (laughs) You know, the hairs on my arm stood up. 358 00:17:07,416 --> 00:17:11,416 And I turned around and I said... 359 00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:14,333 "Billy?" And he says... 360 00:17:14,416 --> 00:17:15,458 (gruffly): "Hello." 361 00:17:15,541 --> 00:17:18,999 ♪ ♪ 362 00:17:19,083 --> 00:17:22,083 I said, "Billy, how long have you known Marie?" 363 00:17:22,166 --> 00:17:25,708 And he said, "I've known her all her life." 364 00:17:25,792 --> 00:17:26,958 I said to him, 365 00:17:27,041 --> 00:17:30,083 "Did her father ever bother her 366 00:17:30,166 --> 00:17:32,458 in any way?" And Billy said, 367 00:17:32,541 --> 00:17:34,708 "Sure, he did. 368 00:17:34,792 --> 00:17:37,124 "He used to put pencils 369 00:17:37,208 --> 00:17:39,541 "in her vagina, in her rectum. 370 00:17:39,625 --> 00:17:42,375 "When she was 12 years old, he went to bed with her 371 00:17:42,458 --> 00:17:45,041 and he had sex with her." 372 00:17:45,124 --> 00:17:46,792 And I said, "Billy, 373 00:17:46,875 --> 00:17:49,541 I really need to talk to Marie again." 374 00:17:49,625 --> 00:17:51,792 But Billy said, 375 00:17:51,875 --> 00:17:53,792 "I could kill her. 376 00:17:53,875 --> 00:17:55,875 "I could make her take pills. 377 00:17:55,958 --> 00:17:58,124 I could make her hang herself." 378 00:17:59,958 --> 00:18:03,333 That turned out to be the very first multiple that-- 379 00:18:03,416 --> 00:18:05,458 Not the first I've ever seen. 380 00:18:05,541 --> 00:18:07,999 The first that I ever knew I saw. 381 00:18:08,083 --> 00:18:10,124 ♪ ♪ 382 00:18:10,208 --> 00:18:14,416 I had her have psychological testing. 383 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:16,750 And on the Rorschach test, 384 00:18:16,833 --> 00:18:18,500 which is a projective test, 385 00:18:18,583 --> 00:18:21,875 you look at inkblots and see what people see, 386 00:18:21,958 --> 00:18:23,750 and there are certain normal responses 387 00:18:23,833 --> 00:18:27,750 and certain psychotic kinds of responses. 388 00:18:27,833 --> 00:18:31,291 And Billy's test results were 389 00:18:31,375 --> 00:18:34,583 as psychotic as they come, 390 00:18:34,667 --> 00:18:37,291 and Marie had absolutely 391 00:18:37,375 --> 00:18:40,708 the most normal Rorschach that you would expect. 392 00:18:43,667 --> 00:18:47,166 I'm fascinated by how can there be such 393 00:18:47,249 --> 00:18:50,750 different functioning in the same brain? 394 00:18:50,833 --> 00:18:52,750 My daughter Gillian says, 395 00:18:52,833 --> 00:18:54,458 "Mom, you're the only one who does 396 00:18:54,541 --> 00:18:56,291 group therapy with one person." 397 00:18:56,375 --> 00:18:59,500 ♪ ♪ 398 00:19:00,917 --> 00:19:04,583 Narrator: I would never again see people as I had before. 399 00:19:04,667 --> 00:19:07,458 My innocence, which sprang from ignorance, 400 00:19:07,541 --> 00:19:09,208 would be stripped away, 401 00:19:09,291 --> 00:19:11,166 and I would learn things about human beings 402 00:19:11,249 --> 00:19:14,875 that I'd not been taught during my training as a psychiatrist. 403 00:19:14,958 --> 00:19:17,708 Things most of us would rather not know. 404 00:19:19,333 --> 00:19:21,124 Violent alternate personalities 405 00:19:21,208 --> 00:19:23,750 are usually caricatures of evil, 406 00:19:23,833 --> 00:19:25,958 created in the minds of tormented children 407 00:19:26,041 --> 00:19:28,166 to take their pain and defend them 408 00:19:28,249 --> 00:19:31,999 against real or imagined enemies. 409 00:19:32,083 --> 00:19:35,041 They embody the strength, courage, and wiliness 410 00:19:35,124 --> 00:19:37,917 needed for a tortured child to survive. 411 00:19:39,583 --> 00:19:40,958 Though some mental health experts say 412 00:19:41,041 --> 00:19:43,750 Multiple Personality Disorder doesn't exist, 413 00:19:43,833 --> 00:19:46,917 the American Psychiatric Association says it does, 414 00:19:46,999 --> 00:19:49,625 calling it Dissociative Identity Disorder, 415 00:19:49,708 --> 00:19:51,541 and adding, in most cases, it involves 416 00:19:51,625 --> 00:19:54,208 severe abuse or trauma in childhood. 417 00:19:54,291 --> 00:19:57,625 Parts of the mind splitting from each other... 418 00:19:57,708 --> 00:20:01,083 Dorothy: Before Freud, people like Janet talked about 419 00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:03,416 consciousness at many different levels, 420 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:06,833 like streams running parallel to each other. 421 00:20:06,917 --> 00:20:08,875 ♪ ♪ 422 00:20:08,958 --> 00:20:10,541 Haven't you ever driven and been kind of 423 00:20:10,625 --> 00:20:13,291 into your own thoughts and you pass the exit 424 00:20:13,375 --> 00:20:15,249 that you meant to get off at 425 00:20:15,333 --> 00:20:18,833 'cause you were really thinking about something else? 426 00:20:18,917 --> 00:20:22,375 -We all, from time to time, dissociate. -(fireworks popping) 427 00:20:22,458 --> 00:20:24,208 It's a continuum. 428 00:20:24,291 --> 00:20:27,375 There are degrees all the way to where, 429 00:20:27,458 --> 00:20:30,208 for a period of time, the individual 430 00:20:30,291 --> 00:20:33,792 truly believes himself to be someone else. 431 00:20:35,958 --> 00:20:39,750 At Bellevue, we ran a clinic for children 432 00:20:39,833 --> 00:20:42,375 with Dissociative Identity Disorder, 433 00:20:42,458 --> 00:20:45,208 and it became clear that it starts 434 00:20:45,291 --> 00:20:48,958 very, very, very early. 435 00:20:49,041 --> 00:20:51,375 I worked with one child, let's call her Nancy, 436 00:20:51,458 --> 00:20:54,708 and she had an alter named Amanda. 437 00:20:59,999 --> 00:21:01,625 Uh... 438 00:21:03,999 --> 00:21:06,583 Around 7 or 8. 439 00:21:06,667 --> 00:21:09,500 -7 or 8? What did you do for her? -Mm-hmm. 440 00:21:11,792 --> 00:21:13,917 -I talked to her. -(clicks pen) 441 00:21:13,999 --> 00:21:15,875 You talked to her? 442 00:21:15,958 --> 00:21:18,333 -What about? -(clicks pen) 443 00:21:18,416 --> 00:21:20,041 What happened. 444 00:21:21,208 --> 00:21:23,583 Dorothy: Nancy was referred to me 445 00:21:23,667 --> 00:21:26,416 by a social worker. 446 00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:28,541 She had been abused by a relative. 447 00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,458 Dorothy: I have videos of Nancy going through 448 00:21:40,541 --> 00:21:42,667 so many different kinds of stages. 449 00:21:42,750 --> 00:21:44,249 ♪ ♪ 450 00:21:44,333 --> 00:21:48,917 Also, Nancy kept a diary. 451 00:21:48,999 --> 00:21:51,833 Her different personas had different handwriting. 452 00:21:51,917 --> 00:21:54,583 Different spelling! 453 00:21:57,249 --> 00:21:59,291 Narrator: Alternate personalities leave evidence 454 00:21:59,375 --> 00:22:01,667 of their existence all over the place. 455 00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:04,333 Teacher reports, social service records, 456 00:22:04,416 --> 00:22:06,792 medical charts, journals, 457 00:22:06,875 --> 00:22:09,124 diaries, drawings. 458 00:22:09,208 --> 00:22:11,958 All are pieces of the puzzle that reveal the picture 459 00:22:12,041 --> 00:22:15,500 of a divided, often fragmented mind. 460 00:22:15,583 --> 00:22:17,833 These constitute the evidence needed to show 461 00:22:17,917 --> 00:22:20,708 that Multiple Personality Disorder existed 462 00:22:20,792 --> 00:22:23,833 years before the diagnosis was even considered. 463 00:22:23,917 --> 00:22:25,917 They're proof that the interviewer 464 00:22:25,999 --> 00:22:28,249 did not create the disorder. 465 00:22:29,541 --> 00:22:31,458 (applause) 466 00:22:31,541 --> 00:22:33,917 Gibney: So when you start to present some of your findings 467 00:22:33,999 --> 00:22:36,041 -to other psychiatric colleagues... -Dorothy: Yeah. 468 00:22:36,124 --> 00:22:39,625 ...what was their reaction? Was it welcoming? 469 00:22:39,708 --> 00:22:41,958 Oh sure. (laughs) No. 470 00:22:42,041 --> 00:22:44,917 If you were an esteemed clinician, 471 00:22:44,999 --> 00:22:48,166 researcher, psychologist, psychiatrist, 472 00:22:48,249 --> 00:22:49,833 you did not take that seriously. 473 00:22:49,917 --> 00:22:52,792 That was a bogus diagnosis. 474 00:22:52,875 --> 00:22:54,999 Dorothy: I got ridiculed a lot 475 00:22:55,083 --> 00:22:57,208 at Yale, where I showed 476 00:22:57,291 --> 00:23:02,541 some of the most poignant pictures of small children, 477 00:23:02,625 --> 00:23:04,625 and you saw them switch, 478 00:23:04,708 --> 00:23:08,208 and you could give the history of what had happened to them. 479 00:23:08,291 --> 00:23:11,500 Even when they saw it right in front of their faces, 480 00:23:11,583 --> 00:23:13,291 the head of one of the departments said, 481 00:23:13,375 --> 00:23:16,667 "There must be another explanation." 482 00:23:16,750 --> 00:23:18,208 (laughs) And so I thought, 483 00:23:18,291 --> 00:23:22,208 "Tell me what it is. I'm open to that." But, uh, 484 00:23:22,291 --> 00:23:24,208 so, there was... 485 00:23:24,291 --> 00:23:27,208 Well, I think there still is a skepticism. 486 00:23:27,291 --> 00:23:30,041 ♪ ♪ 487 00:23:30,124 --> 00:23:33,875 At Bellevue, we had a lot of room 488 00:23:33,958 --> 00:23:38,083 to spread out our data and to videotape 489 00:23:38,166 --> 00:23:40,416 and stuff like that and then 490 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:44,249 they hired someone who was very hostile to our work 491 00:23:44,333 --> 00:23:48,458 and took away all our space, and, eventually, I left. 492 00:23:51,416 --> 00:23:54,541 (machine humming) 493 00:23:55,166 --> 00:23:57,291 (footsteps) 494 00:24:05,958 --> 00:24:07,541 H, I, J... 495 00:24:09,166 --> 00:24:12,625 These files are filled with death row inmates, 496 00:24:12,708 --> 00:24:15,416 or evaluations that we've done 497 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,458 on murderers who were going to trial. 498 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,083 (rattling) 499 00:24:21,166 --> 00:24:24,416 There are also records of what we discovered 500 00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,958 and then what the law was willing to accept. 501 00:24:27,041 --> 00:24:29,208 ♪ ♪ 502 00:24:29,291 --> 00:24:32,875 -(typing) -(indistinct chatter) 503 00:24:32,958 --> 00:24:35,166 Man 1: She was just snatched off the street... 504 00:24:36,375 --> 00:24:38,041 Man 2: Found a body... 505 00:24:41,833 --> 00:24:43,625 Man 3: Possibility of strangulation... 506 00:24:43,708 --> 00:24:45,833 Man 4: You would not be able to recognize the face of the body. 507 00:24:45,917 --> 00:24:47,625 Man 5: Postmortem mutilation of the victims... 508 00:24:47,708 --> 00:24:49,917 Man 6: It is one of the most significant arrests... 509 00:24:49,999 --> 00:24:51,458 Arthur J. Shawcross... 510 00:24:51,541 --> 00:24:54,416 Served 15 years in prison for the murder of two children. 511 00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:56,249 1987, he was released on parole. 512 00:24:56,333 --> 00:24:58,541 Man 7: He is a severely emotionally disturbed man. 513 00:24:58,625 --> 00:25:02,291 Woman: 514 00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:04,750 Whether this defendant was legally insane 515 00:25:04,833 --> 00:25:08,208 is a question of fact for you to decide. 516 00:25:12,041 --> 00:25:14,500 Narrator: Arthur Shawcross was preparing to go to trial 517 00:25:14,583 --> 00:25:16,458 in Rochester, New York. 518 00:25:16,541 --> 00:25:18,625 Before I even laid eyes on the defendant, 519 00:25:18,708 --> 00:25:21,833 his lawyers had obtained an MRI of his brain. 520 00:25:21,917 --> 00:25:24,041 The MRI had shown that at the very tip 521 00:25:24,124 --> 00:25:27,875 of his right temporal lobe was a small fluid cyst. 522 00:25:27,958 --> 00:25:29,333 ♪ ♪ 523 00:25:29,416 --> 00:25:32,041 The brain is a very sensitive organ. 524 00:25:32,124 --> 00:25:35,333 The tiniest scar or tumor or cyst 525 00:25:35,416 --> 00:25:36,833 can, under certain circumstances, 526 00:25:36,917 --> 00:25:39,750 trigger abnormal electric activity 527 00:25:39,833 --> 00:25:42,708 and seizures associated with bizarre, 528 00:25:42,792 --> 00:25:44,999 animalistic behaviors. 529 00:25:46,792 --> 00:25:49,208 Here is the frontal lobe, 530 00:25:49,291 --> 00:25:52,416 and the frontal lobes restrain. 531 00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:54,500 They're the part that kind of says, 532 00:25:54,583 --> 00:25:56,333 "Well, I might want another piece of cake, 533 00:25:56,416 --> 00:25:57,917 but I'm not gonna have it." 534 00:25:57,999 --> 00:26:02,041 Or, "I might like to rape this lady, but maybe I can find some... 535 00:26:02,124 --> 00:26:05,375 more appropriate (laughs) whatever." 536 00:26:05,458 --> 00:26:08,500 There's a deep part of the brain called 537 00:26:08,583 --> 00:26:10,041 the limbic system. 538 00:26:10,124 --> 00:26:13,166 This limbic system has to do with food, 539 00:26:13,249 --> 00:26:15,541 with sex, with anger, 540 00:26:15,625 --> 00:26:17,041 with you name it. 541 00:26:17,124 --> 00:26:20,041 It's the very primitive part of the brain. 542 00:26:20,124 --> 00:26:23,166 There are a lot of connections between the lobes 543 00:26:23,249 --> 00:26:25,458 and the limbic system. 544 00:26:25,541 --> 00:26:28,458 I think of it as reins on a horse. 545 00:26:28,541 --> 00:26:30,750 So, with Shawcross, 546 00:26:30,833 --> 00:26:33,999 the cyst in his temporal lobe 547 00:26:34,083 --> 00:26:37,416 would excite the limbic system, 548 00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:40,249 and put it out of whack. 549 00:26:40,333 --> 00:26:42,833 But then, Jonathan Pincus said, "Dorothy, 550 00:26:42,917 --> 00:26:45,541 what about the scars in the frontal lobe?" 551 00:26:45,625 --> 00:26:47,583 ♪ ♪ 552 00:26:47,667 --> 00:26:51,249 And, you know, it's incredible. 553 00:26:51,333 --> 00:26:54,917 The reins on the horse had been cut, 554 00:26:54,999 --> 00:26:57,083 and he was triggered. 555 00:26:57,166 --> 00:26:59,416 If somebody said, "I'll tell the police," 556 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:01,500 or, "I'll tell your mother." 557 00:27:01,583 --> 00:27:05,667 That would snap him, and he would kill. 558 00:27:09,667 --> 00:27:12,124 -Dorothy: Do you know me? No? I'm Dr. Lewis. -No. 559 00:27:12,208 --> 00:27:15,041 Would it be okay to talk with you a little bit? Yeah? 560 00:27:15,124 --> 00:27:18,375 I videotaped Arthur Shawcross, yes. 561 00:27:18,458 --> 00:27:20,708 Yeah. Oh, he was a character. 562 00:27:21,667 --> 00:27:24,875 Dorothy: 563 00:27:31,208 --> 00:27:32,917 And, you know... 564 00:27:50,541 --> 00:27:53,249 (birds chirping, animals calling) 565 00:28:01,208 --> 00:28:03,166 I just... 566 00:28:03,249 --> 00:28:04,750 Dorothy: From day one, I said, 567 00:28:04,833 --> 00:28:07,333 "I think he has temporal lobe seizures 568 00:28:07,416 --> 00:28:09,291 from everything he told me." 569 00:28:09,375 --> 00:28:11,999 The person may see very bright lights, 570 00:28:12,083 --> 00:28:15,625 the person may get nauseated, the person... 571 00:28:15,708 --> 00:28:18,667 may feel a headache or dizzy, 572 00:28:18,750 --> 00:28:21,124 followed by sleep. 573 00:28:39,416 --> 00:28:42,124 Dorothy: What would happen is the girl would be in his car 574 00:28:42,208 --> 00:28:44,541 or his van, 575 00:28:44,625 --> 00:28:46,291 and he would kill her, 576 00:28:46,375 --> 00:28:48,750 and he'd fall sound asleep. 577 00:28:48,833 --> 00:28:50,541 And he'd wake up, 578 00:28:50,625 --> 00:28:53,458 and it was kinda, "Oops. I must've done it again." 579 00:28:54,958 --> 00:28:56,958 Shawcross: 580 00:29:02,833 --> 00:29:05,375 (police chatter) 581 00:29:05,458 --> 00:29:08,208 Yeager: Something that was telling about how his brain worked 582 00:29:08,291 --> 00:29:11,375 was we interviewed the wife separately, 583 00:29:11,458 --> 00:29:13,999 and she did not believe he had done anything bad. 584 00:29:14,083 --> 00:29:16,583 She saw him as this loving man 585 00:29:16,667 --> 00:29:20,333 who worked nights. He was a cook in a cafeteria. 586 00:29:20,416 --> 00:29:22,750 And then he would be done early in the morning, 587 00:29:22,833 --> 00:29:25,208 and our best guess was if he was gonna commit a murder, 588 00:29:25,291 --> 00:29:27,750 it would be sometime in the dark in the middle of the night 589 00:29:27,833 --> 00:29:29,792 or towards dawn. 590 00:29:29,875 --> 00:29:31,708 And he would tell his wife, 591 00:29:31,792 --> 00:29:34,958 "You know, there's a serial murderer around. Don't go out." 592 00:29:35,041 --> 00:29:37,667 (laughs) So, when she told us that, 593 00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:39,792 you know, at that point, we had an inkling 594 00:29:39,875 --> 00:29:42,208 that there was something not right. 595 00:29:42,291 --> 00:29:44,458 Dorothy: 596 00:29:50,792 --> 00:29:52,500 (in falsetto): Bessie. 597 00:29:52,583 --> 00:29:54,208 Bessie! 598 00:29:58,792 --> 00:30:00,208 (paper crinkling) 599 00:30:04,166 --> 00:30:06,999 Narrator: It became clear that Arthur Shawcross experienced 600 00:30:07,083 --> 00:30:09,041 dissociative states. 601 00:30:09,124 --> 00:30:12,249 At these times, he would hear his mother in his head, 602 00:30:12,333 --> 00:30:15,249 berating him and the women he was seeing. 603 00:30:15,333 --> 00:30:18,333 No one was good enough for Artie. They should die. 604 00:30:19,166 --> 00:30:22,083 Dorothy: 605 00:30:24,333 --> 00:30:26,708 -I hurt all of them. -Dorothy: What? 606 00:30:32,875 --> 00:30:34,041 (scoffs) 607 00:30:38,917 --> 00:30:41,041 Dorothy: 608 00:30:54,708 --> 00:30:57,875 Dorothy: He lifted up his fist. 609 00:30:59,625 --> 00:31:02,625 There was no way that I could get out, 610 00:31:02,708 --> 00:31:06,583 and I thought that he was going to attack me. 611 00:31:08,625 --> 00:31:10,249 Dorothy: A knife? 612 00:31:17,166 --> 00:31:18,958 (sighs) 613 00:31:23,833 --> 00:31:25,291 Dorothy: 614 00:31:25,792 --> 00:31:27,041 (sighs) 615 00:31:27,124 --> 00:31:30,249 Dorothy: Who are you cutting? 616 00:31:30,333 --> 00:31:32,208 Dorothy: One of his victims 617 00:31:32,291 --> 00:31:34,999 had been sliced from her neck 618 00:31:35,083 --> 00:31:37,541 all the way down to her pubic area. 619 00:31:37,625 --> 00:31:41,083 -(police chatter) -(siren) 620 00:31:41,166 --> 00:31:42,958 Dorothy: 621 00:31:44,792 --> 00:31:46,999 (in childish voice): 622 00:31:47,875 --> 00:31:48,958 Dorothy: 623 00:31:49,041 --> 00:31:50,249 (whimpers) 624 00:31:51,792 --> 00:31:53,958 Where is she biting you, Art? 625 00:31:55,291 --> 00:31:57,249 Art, Art, where is she-- 626 00:31:57,333 --> 00:31:58,625 Dorothy: 627 00:31:59,333 --> 00:32:00,999 (whimpers) 628 00:32:04,958 --> 00:32:07,375 Narrator: I had no question that Mr. Shawcross 629 00:32:07,458 --> 00:32:10,416 had been severely abused. 630 00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:12,375 School records described his mother 631 00:32:12,458 --> 00:32:14,750 as punishing and rejecting. 632 00:32:14,833 --> 00:32:18,041 In grade school, the young Arthur cowered under radiators 633 00:32:18,124 --> 00:32:21,708 -while the other children sang songs. -(distant singing) 634 00:32:21,792 --> 00:32:23,500 Psychological tests revealed 635 00:32:23,583 --> 00:32:25,583 a seriously disturbed child, 636 00:32:25,667 --> 00:32:28,291 lost in a fantasy in which he perceived himself 637 00:32:28,375 --> 00:32:30,958 a new person. 638 00:32:31,041 --> 00:32:32,708 (normal voice): 639 00:32:51,291 --> 00:32:52,958 Opening arguments began today 640 00:32:53,041 --> 00:32:55,625 in the Shawcross murder trial, and late this afternoon, 641 00:32:55,708 --> 00:32:57,291 the first witnesses were called to the stand. 642 00:32:57,375 --> 00:32:59,583 Defense Attorney Thomas Cocuzzi 643 00:32:59,667 --> 00:33:01,500 contends that his client's sanity 644 00:33:01,583 --> 00:33:03,875 is in question. Cocuzzi told jurors 645 00:33:03,958 --> 00:33:06,124 that he will put an expert psychiatrist, 646 00:33:06,208 --> 00:33:07,750 Dr. Dorothy Lewis, on the stand. 647 00:33:07,833 --> 00:33:09,416 Thomas Cocuzzi: And you're going to hear aspects 648 00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:11,917 of his medical records and his school records 649 00:33:11,999 --> 00:33:13,708 and his prison records... 650 00:33:14,917 --> 00:33:17,458 reflecting his behavior 651 00:33:17,541 --> 00:33:19,958 not since his arrest, 652 00:33:20,041 --> 00:33:21,458 but throughout his life. 653 00:33:21,541 --> 00:33:25,083 -Gibney: You were testifying for the defense. -Yes, I was. 654 00:33:25,166 --> 00:33:26,999 But what's interesting with him-- 655 00:33:27,083 --> 00:33:28,792 Gibney: To keep him from being executed? 656 00:33:28,875 --> 00:33:31,041 Well, not really 'cause it was New York, 657 00:33:31,124 --> 00:33:34,333 and they don't execute people in New York. 658 00:33:34,416 --> 00:33:36,750 But the defense was arguing 659 00:33:36,833 --> 00:33:40,458 he should be in an institution, not in prison. 660 00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:45,458 And I had said to the lawyers, 661 00:33:45,541 --> 00:33:48,041 "We're gonna be educating the public. 662 00:33:48,124 --> 00:33:50,583 "Look, you can show the jury pictures 663 00:33:50,667 --> 00:33:52,500 "of the MRI. 664 00:33:52,583 --> 00:33:54,458 "You can see the cyst. 665 00:33:54,541 --> 00:33:57,667 "You can see the scars in the frontal lobe. 666 00:33:57,750 --> 00:34:01,416 Go with that." And they didn't. 667 00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:07,333 Instead, they ran with the dissociative symptoms. 668 00:34:08,249 --> 00:34:10,999 Dorothy (on video): 669 00:34:11,625 --> 00:34:14,583 (in falsetto): 670 00:34:14,667 --> 00:34:18,458 But that's a much tougher diagnosis for a jury. 671 00:34:18,541 --> 00:34:21,708 I mean, it, it just seems so fantastic. 672 00:34:21,792 --> 00:34:23,958 Dorothy (on video): 673 00:34:26,583 --> 00:34:27,667 Dorothy: 11? 674 00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:35,291 -Shawcross (on video): -Dorothy (on video): No? 675 00:34:35,375 --> 00:34:37,208 Narrator: I had been tricked. 676 00:34:37,291 --> 00:34:39,958 What about the neurological findings? 677 00:34:40,041 --> 00:34:41,416 By the time I took the stand, 678 00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:43,583 it was clear that Shawcross' attorneys 679 00:34:43,667 --> 00:34:47,166 were not going to produce a neurologist. 680 00:34:47,249 --> 00:34:50,458 Your Honor, I was lied to, and therefore, 681 00:34:50,541 --> 00:34:53,750 I cannot credibly testify 682 00:34:53,833 --> 00:34:57,291 without clarifying what I was told, 683 00:34:57,375 --> 00:34:59,416 what I was told was being done, 684 00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:03,208 -and then what I... -Burr: Dorothy had a hard time on the witness stand. 685 00:35:05,375 --> 00:35:07,541 She was always involved in so many things. 686 00:35:07,625 --> 00:35:10,583 She would come to wherever the hearing was, 687 00:35:10,667 --> 00:35:13,416 and she wouldn't have sort of 688 00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:15,541 gathered her thoughts and, 689 00:35:15,625 --> 00:35:17,999 you know, kinda systematized her thinking. 690 00:35:18,083 --> 00:35:21,375 Dorothy's not linear, um. 691 00:35:21,458 --> 00:35:24,291 And that's part of her genius. 692 00:35:24,375 --> 00:35:26,875 But it's also part of... 693 00:35:26,999 --> 00:35:28,999 frustration in trying to, 694 00:35:29,083 --> 00:35:30,999 to bring her into a system 695 00:35:31,083 --> 00:35:34,291 that requires linearity, like the legal system. 696 00:35:34,375 --> 00:35:36,458 -(indistinct) -Dorothy: Your Honor, may I please request 697 00:35:36,541 --> 00:35:38,416 a recess for 15 minutes 698 00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:43,124 because I do not feel prepared to go on right now. 699 00:35:43,208 --> 00:35:45,124 Narrator: I was repeatedly chastised by the judge 700 00:35:45,208 --> 00:35:48,416 for not responding directly to questions with a succinct 701 00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:49,958 yes or no. 702 00:35:50,041 --> 00:35:53,416 I looked clumsy and disorganized. 703 00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,500 This is not the way psychiatry works. It is not the way... 704 00:35:57,583 --> 00:36:00,625 Narrator: The prosecution hired Park Dietz, one of the most 705 00:36:00,708 --> 00:36:03,792 highly regarded forensic psychiatrists in the nation, 706 00:36:03,875 --> 00:36:08,041 a man who had been a consultant at the FBI and CIA. 707 00:36:08,124 --> 00:36:11,999 He was a handsome, confident man who never appeared hassled. 708 00:36:12,083 --> 00:36:14,625 It was very clear what was happening on the videotapes, 709 00:36:14,708 --> 00:36:16,792 that Dr. Lewis was inviting him 710 00:36:16,875 --> 00:36:18,999 to play various performances. 711 00:36:19,083 --> 00:36:21,291 She invited him to play the role 712 00:36:21,375 --> 00:36:23,166 of his mother, even telling him that 713 00:36:23,249 --> 00:36:26,875 he can take on the role of his mother and talk like his mother, 714 00:36:26,958 --> 00:36:29,999 and he even does it in a falsetto voice. 715 00:36:30,083 --> 00:36:32,999 Gibney: Do you buy the whole idea of Multiple Personality Disorder? 716 00:36:33,083 --> 00:36:35,583 No. (laughs) I think it's a hoax. 717 00:36:36,541 --> 00:36:38,500 I think it is a sad fact 718 00:36:38,583 --> 00:36:40,500 that people in my profession 719 00:36:40,583 --> 00:36:43,583 were so eager to find something 720 00:36:43,667 --> 00:36:46,999 that they did a form of interviewing 721 00:36:47,083 --> 00:36:49,458 that can cause vulnerable people 722 00:36:49,541 --> 00:36:52,583 to believe they have more than one personality. 723 00:36:53,208 --> 00:36:55,667 Dorothy: 724 00:37:01,124 --> 00:37:04,208 Dietz: Dr. Lewis subjected Shawcross 725 00:37:04,291 --> 00:37:09,083 to a kind of a hypnosis during part of her interview. 726 00:37:09,999 --> 00:37:11,792 Dorothy: 727 00:37:14,416 --> 00:37:17,375 Dorothy: You don't like to use hypnosis if you can avoid it. 728 00:37:17,458 --> 00:37:22,833 But it was early in my career at the Shawcross trial. 729 00:37:22,917 --> 00:37:25,041 Hypnosis is questionable. 730 00:37:25,124 --> 00:37:28,625 People who can be hypnotized can also-- are very suggestible. 731 00:37:28,708 --> 00:37:31,708 If you do use hypnosis, you want to 732 00:37:31,792 --> 00:37:34,249 confirm what was said, 733 00:37:34,333 --> 00:37:36,416 either from other relatives, 734 00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:39,041 friends, hospital records, school records. 735 00:37:39,124 --> 00:37:42,208 You just can't believe everything. 736 00:37:42,291 --> 00:37:44,750 Dietz: During a hypnotic session, 737 00:37:44,833 --> 00:37:49,500 he identified himself as a 13th century cannibal. 738 00:37:52,667 --> 00:37:54,291 Yeah? 739 00:37:59,375 --> 00:38:00,999 Dorothy: 740 00:38:05,083 --> 00:38:07,708 He exhibited none of that with me. 741 00:38:09,041 --> 00:38:10,833 Dietz: 742 00:38:16,667 --> 00:38:18,041 Dietz: He answered to his name, 743 00:38:18,124 --> 00:38:20,875 as he had to everybody else throughout his entire life, 744 00:38:20,958 --> 00:38:22,291 except Dorothy Lewis. 745 00:38:22,375 --> 00:38:24,792 And he understood how, where, when, and why 746 00:38:24,875 --> 00:38:27,083 he did every one of those murders. 747 00:38:39,625 --> 00:38:42,875 Any popular notion that serial killers 748 00:38:42,958 --> 00:38:45,833 are crazy people is just wrong. 749 00:38:45,917 --> 00:38:48,999 We have no way to know how many men 750 00:38:49,083 --> 00:38:51,958 have as their favorite sexual fantasy 751 00:38:52,041 --> 00:38:53,625 strangling a woman to death 752 00:38:53,708 --> 00:38:56,083 until her tongue protrudes from her mouth 753 00:38:56,166 --> 00:38:59,458 and you hear the last breath leave her body. 754 00:38:59,541 --> 00:39:02,999 But I bet it isn't related only to those few men 755 00:39:03,083 --> 00:39:05,249 who do that routinely. 756 00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:07,999 Gibney: This was a guy who did 757 00:39:08,083 --> 00:39:10,166 some pretty grisly things to his victims. 758 00:39:10,249 --> 00:39:11,958 Well, he... 759 00:39:12,041 --> 00:39:14,917 ate the vagina of one of them, 760 00:39:14,999 --> 00:39:16,999 and, uh, you know, 761 00:39:17,083 --> 00:39:20,792 I thought that was pretty bizarre, and I've seen a lot. 762 00:39:20,875 --> 00:39:22,917 Nobody with a taste for that. 763 00:39:31,041 --> 00:39:32,500 Dorothy: On the stand, 764 00:39:32,583 --> 00:39:35,375 Park Dietz said he ate the vagina 765 00:39:35,458 --> 00:39:37,333 to hide the DNA. 766 00:39:37,416 --> 00:39:40,041 Surely, Doctor, there must be an easier way 767 00:39:40,124 --> 00:39:42,875 to get rid of the evidence. (laughs) 768 00:39:42,958 --> 00:39:44,999 ♪ ♪ 769 00:39:45,083 --> 00:39:46,708 Dietz: Ultimately, it was my opinion 770 00:39:46,792 --> 00:39:48,750 that Shawcross was not insane 771 00:39:48,833 --> 00:39:51,375 under the law, and that he knew what he was doing, 772 00:39:51,458 --> 00:39:53,208 knew it was wrong. 773 00:39:53,291 --> 00:39:54,999 Gibney: "What kind of sane person 774 00:39:55,083 --> 00:39:57,249 would eat the vaginas of his victims?" 775 00:39:57,333 --> 00:40:01,625 I guess would be what an average person like me might say. 776 00:40:01,708 --> 00:40:03,833 One has nothing to do with the other. 777 00:40:03,917 --> 00:40:09,124 Whether you are responsible for a murder you did 778 00:40:09,208 --> 00:40:13,041 is unrelated to whether you once ate a raw rabbit 779 00:40:13,124 --> 00:40:15,291 or a raw vagina. 780 00:40:15,999 --> 00:40:19,458 Cold, calculating, 781 00:40:19,541 --> 00:40:21,833 and remorseless. 782 00:40:21,917 --> 00:40:23,541 For whom killing 783 00:40:23,625 --> 00:40:26,416 was not an emotional disturbance. 784 00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:29,124 Yeager: Siragusa was the prosecutor on the case, 785 00:40:29,208 --> 00:40:33,416 and he was running for office. 786 00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:36,249 And so, I think she was the recipient 787 00:40:36,333 --> 00:40:38,667 of his need to 788 00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:40,541 show that he's a tough guy on crime. 789 00:40:40,625 --> 00:40:42,875 -And you said-- -Dorothy: Said that they might've been caused... 790 00:40:42,958 --> 00:40:46,999 -by a stroke. -Excuse me, Doctor. Can you answer-- 791 00:40:47,083 --> 00:40:49,958 Can you try, Doctor, just to answer our question? 792 00:40:50,041 --> 00:40:51,833 -Shh. -Can you hear me, Doctor? 793 00:40:51,917 --> 00:40:54,917 Yeager: And he was gonna put her into the mud because that 794 00:40:54,999 --> 00:40:57,875 would help his cause, and he did get elected. 795 00:40:57,958 --> 00:40:59,541 I would never say anything 796 00:40:59,625 --> 00:41:02,458 about Dr. Lewis other than to comment that 797 00:41:02,541 --> 00:41:05,541 I think her performance in court speaks for itself. 798 00:41:05,625 --> 00:41:08,416 You know, Dorothy paved the way 799 00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:10,458 for a whole generation 800 00:41:10,541 --> 00:41:14,375 of mental health professionals who followed in her steps. 801 00:41:14,458 --> 00:41:18,249 But she was a pioneer, and pioneers are often... 802 00:41:18,333 --> 00:41:20,124 you know, not treated well. 803 00:41:20,208 --> 00:41:22,625 I think there was an intuitive recognition 804 00:41:22,708 --> 00:41:25,208 on the part of prosecutors, uh, 805 00:41:26,041 --> 00:41:28,208 that what she had to say 806 00:41:29,875 --> 00:41:32,875 bore heavily on the truth. 807 00:41:32,958 --> 00:41:35,291 And the truth is not 808 00:41:35,375 --> 00:41:37,792 what some prosecutors wanted. 809 00:41:37,875 --> 00:41:41,833 She swallowed the stories he told hook, line, and sinker. 810 00:41:41,917 --> 00:41:43,875 Gibney: So when you were on the stand, 811 00:41:43,958 --> 00:41:46,667 the attorney on the other side, the prosecuting attorney 812 00:41:46,750 --> 00:41:49,041 -was making fun of you for thinking that there was -Yes. 813 00:41:49,124 --> 00:41:52,999 -such a thing as multiple personalities. -Yeah. Yes. Yeah. 814 00:41:53,083 --> 00:41:55,917 Or for anything else (laughs) you know. 815 00:41:55,999 --> 00:41:58,708 The local radio station made up jingles about me. 816 00:41:58,792 --> 00:42:01,083 DJ: The boys have written a song in Dorothy's honor 817 00:42:01,166 --> 00:42:03,083 and I hope it comes out alright. 818 00:42:03,166 --> 00:42:05,500 ♪ Hey, look who's on the stand again ♪ 819 00:42:05,583 --> 00:42:07,083 (country music) 820 00:42:07,166 --> 00:42:09,750 ♪ Back to defend her killer friend ♪ 821 00:42:10,917 --> 00:42:13,166 ♪ Got her psychiatry degree ♪ 822 00:42:13,249 --> 00:42:14,917 ♪ Hoo Lord! ♪ 823 00:42:14,999 --> 00:42:18,583 ♪ Now, she's on Arthur's side you see ♪ 824 00:42:18,667 --> 00:42:22,541 ♪ She tries to justify what's wrong ♪ 825 00:42:22,625 --> 00:42:25,124 ♪ Because his mother played with his dong, hey, hey! ♪ 826 00:42:25,208 --> 00:42:27,708 ♪ Yakety yak, Dorothy's back ♪ 827 00:42:27,792 --> 00:42:29,541 -Yeah. -Gibney: They were making fun of you because-- 828 00:42:29,625 --> 00:42:31,208 just because you were on his side, or because 829 00:42:31,291 --> 00:42:33,792 you were evincing a particular theory about him? 830 00:42:35,667 --> 00:42:37,583 How about all of the above? 831 00:42:37,667 --> 00:42:39,833 All of the above, you know, uh... 832 00:42:43,583 --> 00:42:44,708 Yeah. 833 00:42:44,792 --> 00:42:46,166 Members of the jury, 834 00:42:46,249 --> 00:42:48,291 how do you find in the matter of 835 00:42:48,375 --> 00:42:51,667 the People of the State of New York vs. Arthur Shawcross? 836 00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:53,541 Foreman: Guilty. 837 00:42:53,625 --> 00:42:55,833 Narrator: It took the jury less than two hours 838 00:42:55,917 --> 00:42:57,541 to find Mr. Shawcross sane 839 00:42:57,625 --> 00:43:00,375 and guilty of the murders of 10 women. 840 00:43:00,458 --> 00:43:02,750 It took me three years to recover 841 00:43:02,833 --> 00:43:04,917 from my three weeks on the stand. 842 00:43:04,999 --> 00:43:07,792 No one had believed a word I said. 843 00:43:07,875 --> 00:43:11,124 -Reporter: Do you think Dorothy Lewis let you down? -Don't block me, please. 844 00:43:11,208 --> 00:43:14,166 I have no comment on Dr. Dorothy Lewis. 845 00:43:14,249 --> 00:43:17,999 -Thank you. -(door shutting) 846 00:43:18,083 --> 00:43:20,458 Dorothy: What are you doing? What's happening? 847 00:43:20,541 --> 00:43:23,333 (whimpering) No more. 848 00:43:25,958 --> 00:43:29,208 Narrator: Was Arthur Shawcross crazy when he murdered his victims 849 00:43:29,291 --> 00:43:32,249 and consumed their genitalia? 850 00:43:32,333 --> 00:43:35,583 Of course. He had to be. 851 00:43:35,667 --> 00:43:37,917 Insane? 852 00:43:37,999 --> 00:43:40,166 Not necessarily. 853 00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:46,667 (birds chirping) 854 00:43:48,833 --> 00:43:51,083 -Gibney: When a defense attorney hires you... -Dorothy: Yeah? Mm-hmm. 855 00:43:51,166 --> 00:43:53,625 -in the legal system, for what purpose do they hire you? -Dorothy: Yeah. 856 00:43:53,708 --> 00:43:55,291 Well, uh, you know, 857 00:43:55,375 --> 00:43:57,792 I don't really care for what purpose 858 00:43:57,875 --> 00:44:00,792 'cause I do the same evaluation. 859 00:44:00,875 --> 00:44:03,083 They're probably hoping that I will find 860 00:44:03,166 --> 00:44:06,333 the person is stark raving mad. (laughs) But, uh... 861 00:44:07,792 --> 00:44:10,917 The law has a lot to learn from psychiatry. 862 00:44:10,999 --> 00:44:15,833 And instead, psychiatry accepts the legal definition 863 00:44:15,917 --> 00:44:19,249 of what's crazy and what isn't crazy. 864 00:44:19,333 --> 00:44:21,291 They have a notion of competence, 865 00:44:21,375 --> 00:44:23,625 and a notion of insanity, 866 00:44:23,708 --> 00:44:27,750 both of which don't make sense psychiatrically. 867 00:44:27,833 --> 00:44:31,124 There are different levels of competence. 868 00:44:31,208 --> 00:44:33,333 "Oh, well, I know what a courtroom is. 869 00:44:33,416 --> 00:44:36,416 A courtroom is where there's a judge and there's a jury." 870 00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:38,833 "And do you know what you're accused of?" 871 00:44:38,917 --> 00:44:41,500 "Oh yeah. I'm accused of robbery, 872 00:44:41,583 --> 00:44:42,999 of murder, and..." 873 00:44:43,083 --> 00:44:46,500 Done, you know? He's competent. 874 00:44:46,583 --> 00:44:48,583 This is the law, period. 875 00:44:50,375 --> 00:44:52,333 Burr: In the Middle Ages in England, 876 00:44:52,416 --> 00:44:54,875 they had the death penalty, and the legal system 877 00:44:54,958 --> 00:44:58,166 had the view if somebody had become mad, 878 00:44:58,249 --> 00:45:01,500 that madness itself was enough punishment. 879 00:45:01,583 --> 00:45:03,999 That's part of the English common law 880 00:45:04,083 --> 00:45:08,416 that came with the English colonists to North America. 881 00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:10,333 At some point though, 882 00:45:10,416 --> 00:45:13,291 in death penalty cases in the United States, 883 00:45:13,375 --> 00:45:15,625 that notion got lost. 884 00:45:15,708 --> 00:45:18,333 That madness was punishment enough, 885 00:45:18,416 --> 00:45:21,792 and people could be executed 886 00:45:21,875 --> 00:45:24,833 despite being very psychotic. 887 00:45:26,041 --> 00:45:28,667 And as late as the 1950s, 888 00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:31,875 the US Supreme Court had examined a case like that, 889 00:45:31,958 --> 00:45:33,875 and said that doesn't offend the Constitution. 890 00:45:33,958 --> 00:45:36,249 It's not cruel and unusual to do that. 891 00:45:37,708 --> 00:45:40,208 Dorothy: You're competent to be executed 892 00:45:40,291 --> 00:45:43,375 if you know what you've been found guilty of, 893 00:45:43,458 --> 00:45:46,750 and if you know what it is to be executed. 894 00:45:49,124 --> 00:45:51,625 Now, that's a pretty low bar, wouldn't you say? 895 00:45:53,875 --> 00:45:56,416 By and large, the law has taken on 896 00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:59,124 the very simple-minded criterion 897 00:45:59,208 --> 00:46:01,249 that ignores all that we know now 898 00:46:01,333 --> 00:46:03,999 about how the human brain works, 899 00:46:04,083 --> 00:46:06,625 about some of the genetics of disorders. 900 00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:10,667 (applause, cheering) 901 00:46:10,750 --> 00:46:13,541 When Clinton was running for president, 902 00:46:13,625 --> 00:46:16,124 he was called back to Arkansas 903 00:46:16,208 --> 00:46:20,750 to sign a death warrant because he was governor. 904 00:46:20,833 --> 00:46:24,875 Apparently, Ricky Ray was used to having his dinner 905 00:46:24,958 --> 00:46:29,375 at a certain time and saving the dessert for later. 906 00:46:29,458 --> 00:46:31,166 And he... 907 00:46:31,249 --> 00:46:33,583 saved his pecan pie 908 00:46:33,667 --> 00:46:36,917 for after the execution. 909 00:46:36,999 --> 00:46:41,458 Now, I would say he didn't know what it meant to be executed. 910 00:46:41,541 --> 00:46:44,458 But my colleagues found him perfectly competent 911 00:46:44,541 --> 00:46:46,124 to be executed. 912 00:46:46,208 --> 00:46:48,291 And I don't know who ate the pie. 913 00:46:48,375 --> 00:46:51,541 (applause, cheering) 914 00:46:55,583 --> 00:46:58,708 ♪ ♪ 915 00:46:59,917 --> 00:47:01,958 Max (singing): ♪ Mrs. Mooney has a pie shop ♪ 916 00:47:02,041 --> 00:47:05,041 ♪ Does good business, but I've noticed something weird ♪ 917 00:47:05,124 --> 00:47:08,124 ♪ Lately, all the neighbors' cats have disappeared ♪ 918 00:47:08,208 --> 00:47:09,667 ♪ Wouldn't do in my shop ♪ 919 00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:12,416 ♪ Just the thought of it's enough to make you sick ♪ 920 00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:15,416 ♪ And I'm telling you them pussycats is quick ♪ 921 00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,541 ♪ No denying times is hard, sir ♪ 922 00:47:18,625 --> 00:47:21,917 ♪ Even harder than the worst pies in London-- ♪ 923 00:47:23,833 --> 00:47:25,750 More pies. 924 00:47:25,833 --> 00:47:27,792 More pies. 925 00:47:27,875 --> 00:47:29,375 More pies. 926 00:47:31,416 --> 00:47:33,500 More pies. 927 00:47:33,583 --> 00:47:35,416 Eat the flesh. 928 00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:39,249 ♪ Eat his body, drink his blood ♪ 929 00:47:39,333 --> 00:47:42,208 Narrator: I am haunted by the prospect of condemning 930 00:47:42,291 --> 00:47:44,833 to death a person whose upbringing 931 00:47:44,917 --> 00:47:46,667 and brain function have made it hard, 932 00:47:46,750 --> 00:47:50,249 if not impossible, for him to control his acts. 933 00:47:50,333 --> 00:47:52,500 Granted, the person may be a menace. 934 00:47:52,583 --> 00:47:54,917 I have no problem locking him up 935 00:47:54,999 --> 00:47:56,999 and throwing away the key. 936 00:47:57,083 --> 00:47:59,333 Until we know how to treat such individuals, 937 00:47:59,416 --> 00:48:01,291 the public must be protected. 938 00:48:07,999 --> 00:48:09,375 Dorothy: 939 00:48:09,458 --> 00:48:10,667 (bird chirping) 940 00:48:17,208 --> 00:48:21,583 Max was brought to the prison ward at Bellevue 941 00:48:21,667 --> 00:48:24,541 because this was the second time 942 00:48:24,625 --> 00:48:27,833 that he had tried to kill a lover. 943 00:48:27,917 --> 00:48:30,166 ♪ ♪ 944 00:48:30,249 --> 00:48:33,500 I was called by one of the doctors 945 00:48:33,583 --> 00:48:36,166 because they believed that he had 946 00:48:36,249 --> 00:48:38,875 Multiple Personality Disorder. 947 00:48:38,958 --> 00:48:42,500 I was asked to confirm the diagnosis, 948 00:48:42,583 --> 00:48:44,249 and then we kinda clicked. 949 00:48:44,333 --> 00:48:47,500 -(Dorothy laughs) -So, I went to see him frequently. 950 00:48:47,583 --> 00:48:48,958 Party tonight. 951 00:48:50,124 --> 00:48:52,958 As far as we could tell, Max had been 952 00:48:53,041 --> 00:48:56,083 tortured by his mother. 953 00:48:56,166 --> 00:48:57,999 Dorothy: Where would she hit you? 954 00:49:04,541 --> 00:49:06,541 She punched... 955 00:49:06,625 --> 00:49:07,875 she punched and she... 956 00:49:07,958 --> 00:49:10,541 She had big long nails, and she used to break... 957 00:49:10,625 --> 00:49:13,708 -Dorothy: Really? -She used to dig them into your skin. 958 00:49:13,792 --> 00:49:15,958 Do you have any marks where she hurt you? 959 00:49:16,041 --> 00:49:17,708 Do I have any marks where she hurt me? 960 00:49:17,792 --> 00:49:19,291 I see marks here, 961 00:49:19,375 --> 00:49:22,208 -little bit I think here, yeah. -Max: Yeah. 962 00:49:22,291 --> 00:49:25,083 -And also right here. -Dorothy: Mm-hmm, yeah. 963 00:49:25,166 --> 00:49:26,917 Marks where I had to kneel on glass. 964 00:49:26,999 --> 00:49:29,792 -Dorothy: What do you mean, kneel on glass? -I had broken some, 965 00:49:29,875 --> 00:49:31,500 and she said, "Well, clean it up." 966 00:49:31,583 --> 00:49:35,083 And so, she pushed me down on the floor, and I, 967 00:49:35,166 --> 00:49:36,875 you know, there was glass on the floor, and I said, 968 00:49:36,958 --> 00:49:38,750 "Well, let me get up." She said, "Clean it up. 969 00:49:38,833 --> 00:49:40,291 You broke it. Clean it up," she said. 970 00:49:40,375 --> 00:49:43,166 -(slapping, growl) -Dorothy: Stop it! 971 00:49:44,999 --> 00:49:48,249 -(gibberish) -Dorothy: ...terrible things. 972 00:49:49,083 --> 00:49:50,583 (gibberish) 973 00:50:03,416 --> 00:50:05,083 (in haughty voice): But you cannot see him? 974 00:50:05,166 --> 00:50:07,917 Why is that we can see him-- Can you see him? 975 00:50:07,999 --> 00:50:09,875 -Mm, no. -He's there. 976 00:50:09,958 --> 00:50:11,833 -Who? -You... 977 00:50:11,917 --> 00:50:14,249 -You cannot see him? -Dorothy: There was 978 00:50:14,333 --> 00:50:17,625 a very strong, often cruel, 979 00:50:17,708 --> 00:50:19,124 part of him, Kalki, 980 00:50:19,208 --> 00:50:23,541 who was almost god-like in the way he viewed himself. 981 00:50:30,917 --> 00:50:32,249 Whatever I do is good. 982 00:50:33,291 --> 00:50:36,124 Dorothy: 983 00:50:38,041 --> 00:50:41,249 He was the one who stabbed Max's lovers. 984 00:50:43,083 --> 00:50:44,375 It was the game. 985 00:50:44,458 --> 00:50:47,625 (gibberish) 986 00:50:49,625 --> 00:50:51,958 (mumbling) 987 00:50:52,041 --> 00:50:54,333 Dorothy: And then there's Jabreel, 988 00:50:54,416 --> 00:50:56,875 and Jabreel was an old man. 989 00:50:56,958 --> 00:50:59,875 A Zen monk. 990 00:50:59,958 --> 00:51:02,833 (lightly): You see? That is love there. That is love. 991 00:51:02,917 --> 00:51:04,375 She would hold him sometimes... 992 00:51:04,458 --> 00:51:08,625 Dorothy: He seemed to have developed as a comforter for Max. 993 00:51:08,708 --> 00:51:12,124 -Max also talked about a baby. -(whining) 994 00:51:13,124 --> 00:51:15,041 (whining continues) 995 00:51:15,124 --> 00:51:16,917 Yeager: He was a very bright young man 996 00:51:16,999 --> 00:51:19,041 and had some insight 997 00:51:19,124 --> 00:51:21,208 into what was going on in his head. 998 00:51:21,291 --> 00:51:24,583 So we would say to him, "Max, 999 00:51:24,667 --> 00:51:27,291 "if a 12-year-old kid had the same kinds 1000 00:51:27,375 --> 00:51:29,249 "of switching that you have, 1001 00:51:29,333 --> 00:51:31,667 what kinds of questions would you ask him?" 1002 00:51:32,625 --> 00:51:34,500 I would ask them... 1003 00:51:35,291 --> 00:51:36,583 if they had a place... 1004 00:51:36,667 --> 00:51:38,875 -(water flowing) -they can go 1005 00:51:38,958 --> 00:51:40,708 that nobody else can go to. 1006 00:51:40,792 --> 00:51:42,500 A place inside themselves 1007 00:51:42,583 --> 00:51:45,124 where nobody else could go to. 1008 00:51:45,208 --> 00:51:48,333 -(birds chirping) -That would seem like that no one else is there. 1009 00:51:48,416 --> 00:51:51,333 And I would say, "Is it a beach? Is it trees?" 1010 00:51:51,416 --> 00:51:53,583 I would say, "What is it? Where do you go? 1011 00:51:53,667 --> 00:51:55,458 "Where do you go when 1012 00:51:55,541 --> 00:51:58,041 you just feel like going someplace else?" 1013 00:51:58,124 --> 00:52:00,625 ♪ ♪ 1014 00:52:00,708 --> 00:52:04,083 It's a very special thing to do, and not many people can do that. 1015 00:52:04,166 --> 00:52:07,750 -Dorothy: So you'd say it's very special? -I'd say it's very special. 1016 00:52:07,833 --> 00:52:09,999 Yeager: And then we would try it out on the kids, 1017 00:52:10,083 --> 00:52:11,958 and he was spot on. 1018 00:52:12,041 --> 00:52:14,541 That's how bright and insightful he was, 1019 00:52:14,625 --> 00:52:16,667 but he couldn't help himself. 1020 00:52:16,750 --> 00:52:19,083 -Dorothy: What games are you playing? -Hm. 1021 00:52:19,166 --> 00:52:20,792 Dorothy: The last time you played games, 1022 00:52:20,875 --> 00:52:23,875 -you got him into a lot of trouble. -Hm. 1023 00:52:23,958 --> 00:52:27,416 -Dorothy: What are you doing, Kalki? -Hm. 1024 00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:30,792 Don't pull that "hm" on me. 1025 00:52:30,875 --> 00:52:33,583 -Hello, Kalki. Yeah, I know you're there. -I am here. 1026 00:52:33,667 --> 00:52:36,083 I know you're there, and I know most people don't 1027 00:52:36,166 --> 00:52:37,999 -talk to you straight. -Hm. 1028 00:52:38,083 --> 00:52:41,333 But I am miffed. I thought we had an agreement. 1029 00:52:41,416 --> 00:52:43,041 You and Jabreel had an agreement. 1030 00:52:43,124 --> 00:52:46,291 -I thought we did. I thought we did! -We did not. 1031 00:52:46,375 --> 00:52:47,917 I thought that went-- 1032 00:52:47,999 --> 00:52:50,208 Do you speak any French? 1033 00:52:50,291 --> 00:52:52,500 You know ça va sans dire. 1034 00:52:52,583 --> 00:52:55,541 -It goes without saying. -Saying. (laughs) 1035 00:52:56,999 --> 00:53:00,917 Maybe we clicked because I didn't play favorites. 1036 00:53:00,999 --> 00:53:03,958 If you notice, I'm empathic to every one of them. 1037 00:53:04,041 --> 00:53:06,541 Well, Kalki certainly has a lot of strength. 1038 00:53:06,625 --> 00:53:08,375 (lightly): Yes, he is very strong, isn't he? 1039 00:53:08,458 --> 00:53:12,500 Dorothy: You never badmouth, especially the abuser. 1040 00:53:12,583 --> 00:53:15,792 That is-- that's an invitation to murder. 1041 00:53:15,875 --> 00:53:18,958 -(ominous music) -(thunder rumbling) 1042 00:53:19,041 --> 00:53:21,708 ♪ ♪ 1043 00:53:21,792 --> 00:53:24,999 One day, I came into my office, 1044 00:53:25,083 --> 00:53:29,166 and my secretary handed me one of these telephone slips, 1045 00:53:29,249 --> 00:53:30,500 and it said, 1046 00:53:30,583 --> 00:53:33,958 "Mr. Scorsese's office has called, 1047 00:53:34,041 --> 00:53:36,958 and would like you to call back." 1048 00:53:37,041 --> 00:53:39,041 So I called back, 1049 00:53:39,124 --> 00:53:41,375 and an assistant of his said, 1050 00:53:41,458 --> 00:53:48,249 "Mr. Scorsese has discovered that you see murderers. 1051 00:53:48,333 --> 00:53:51,041 "Robert De Niro is going to be in a remake 1052 00:53:51,124 --> 00:53:53,958 "of 'Cape Fear,' and he would like 1053 00:53:54,041 --> 00:53:56,041 "to meet some murderers. 1054 00:53:56,124 --> 00:53:58,041 Can you arrange that?" 1055 00:53:58,124 --> 00:54:00,083 It was so funny. I felt like, 1056 00:54:00,166 --> 00:54:03,500 would you say, a casting director? 1057 00:54:03,583 --> 00:54:06,750 So I asked Max. 1058 00:54:06,833 --> 00:54:09,083 He really had attempted to murder twice. 1059 00:54:09,166 --> 00:54:10,375 Oh yes, I could talk to him. 1060 00:54:10,458 --> 00:54:12,541 Dorothy: Max said sure, he would talk with him. 1061 00:54:12,625 --> 00:54:15,875 -I said, "Well, how about Kalki?" -(haughty): Yes. 1062 00:54:15,958 --> 00:54:20,291 -"And Jabreel?" And Jabreel said... -(lightly): Oh, yes. 1063 00:54:20,375 --> 00:54:23,249 Dorothy: So we made an arrangement for De Niro 1064 00:54:23,333 --> 00:54:25,958 to go into the prison ward. 1065 00:54:26,041 --> 00:54:29,166 At first, Max seemed puzzled. 1066 00:54:29,249 --> 00:54:32,750 And I said, "Max, you must know him. 1067 00:54:32,833 --> 00:54:34,917 You've seen 'Taxi Driver.'" 1068 00:54:34,999 --> 00:54:38,041 And he said, "I've never seen 'Taxi Driver.'" 1069 00:54:38,124 --> 00:54:41,249 I said, "Max, Mr. De Niro's going to make 1070 00:54:41,333 --> 00:54:43,667 "a movie out of a man 1071 00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:45,416 who has trouble with his temper." 1072 00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:47,041 Oh! (grunts) 1073 00:54:47,124 --> 00:54:49,208 (Dorothy laughing) 1074 00:54:49,291 --> 00:54:51,541 And I said, "I know 1075 00:54:51,625 --> 00:54:53,458 "Kalki has had trouble with his temper. 1076 00:54:53,541 --> 00:54:55,541 "I would like very much 1077 00:54:55,625 --> 00:54:58,500 for Mr. De Niro to meet Kalki." 1078 00:54:58,583 --> 00:55:00,208 ♪ ♪ 1079 00:55:00,291 --> 00:55:05,583 And the next thing I know, Max really metamorphoses 1080 00:55:05,667 --> 00:55:07,708 to this haughty-- 1081 00:55:07,792 --> 00:55:09,792 The chin came up. 1082 00:55:09,875 --> 00:55:12,792 You know, he really looks different. 1083 00:55:12,875 --> 00:55:16,124 The whole visage is, you know, different. 1084 00:55:16,208 --> 00:55:17,625 The muscles. 1085 00:55:17,708 --> 00:55:20,458 I said, "Kalki, this is Mr. De Niro. 1086 00:55:20,541 --> 00:55:23,124 Mr. De Niro, this is Kalki." 1087 00:55:23,208 --> 00:55:24,625 And Kalki says, 1088 00:55:24,708 --> 00:55:28,667 "Oh, you were so good in 'Taxi Driver'!" 1089 00:55:31,667 --> 00:55:33,833 Dorothy: Tell me, what has happened to your case since-- 1090 00:55:33,917 --> 00:55:36,667 No, nothing's happened. It will take a long time. 1091 00:55:36,750 --> 00:55:38,291 I do not care what happens. 1092 00:55:38,375 --> 00:55:40,291 -I wish they had the death penalty. -Oh! 1093 00:55:40,375 --> 00:55:42,833 I wish they had the death penalty. I would happily have it. 1094 00:55:42,917 --> 00:55:46,333 -Since wha-- Because when... -Dorothy: Why? 1095 00:55:46,416 --> 00:55:48,833 (voice breaking): I-I will tell you why. Because... 1096 00:55:48,917 --> 00:55:52,166 when a dog goes mad, you shoot it, don't you? 1097 00:55:52,249 --> 00:55:55,416 And a person's worth more than a dog, 1098 00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:57,625 and if, and if... 1099 00:55:59,416 --> 00:56:01,500 if you were that kind to a dog, 1100 00:56:01,583 --> 00:56:04,083 why not be that kind to a human being 1101 00:56:04,166 --> 00:56:06,291 and just shoot him or something? 1102 00:56:06,375 --> 00:56:10,166 Dorothy: Max had some good lawyers who cared about him, 1103 00:56:10,249 --> 00:56:13,792 and they asked me if I would write 1104 00:56:13,875 --> 00:56:18,124 a note saying that he was no longer dangerous 1105 00:56:18,208 --> 00:56:21,541 and that he should be discharged from there, 1106 00:56:21,625 --> 00:56:22,917 and I said no. 1107 00:56:22,999 --> 00:56:27,999 He had twice, in his altered states, 1108 00:56:28,083 --> 00:56:29,792 tried to kill. 1109 00:56:29,875 --> 00:56:32,708 And I had no reason to believe 1110 00:56:32,792 --> 00:56:35,375 that he wouldn't do it again. 1111 00:56:35,458 --> 00:56:38,458 And even though we had a lovely relationship, 1112 00:56:38,541 --> 00:56:40,917 you know, I've seen enough to know that 1113 00:56:40,999 --> 00:56:42,917 people can turn on a dime. 1114 00:56:44,083 --> 00:56:47,208 They were very, very angry at me, 1115 00:56:47,291 --> 00:56:50,541 but they found another psychiatrist who was willing 1116 00:56:50,625 --> 00:56:54,625 to write a note, and he was discharged. 1117 00:56:56,708 --> 00:57:00,083 I think Max never really forgave me. 1118 00:57:00,166 --> 00:57:02,166 (cars honking) 1119 00:57:02,249 --> 00:57:05,333 ♪ ♪ 1120 00:57:16,667 --> 00:57:19,792 (snow falling) 1121 00:57:22,333 --> 00:57:24,416 Where is Dad? Where is he? 1122 00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:26,500 -Gillian Lewis: Oh, there he is. -Eric: Here's Dad. 1123 00:57:26,583 --> 00:57:29,124 -Dorothy: Is this Dad? Yay. -Eric: Yeah. 1124 00:57:32,208 --> 00:57:34,750 Dorothy: I like that Royal Army Medical Corps, huh? 1125 00:57:34,833 --> 00:57:36,875 -Eric: It looks great. -Yes. 1126 00:57:36,958 --> 00:57:38,583 -Gillian: Design is so nice. -Beautifully done. 1127 00:57:38,667 --> 00:57:41,375 -Yeah. -Eric: It says, "scholar, editor, teacher." 1128 00:57:41,458 --> 00:57:44,750 -I forgot that we put that. -Gillian: You left out, you know, 1129 00:57:44,833 --> 00:57:47,124 -husband, father. -Dorothy: Husband, father. 1130 00:57:47,208 --> 00:57:48,792 -Gillian: Cool dude. -Eric: Funny guy. 1131 00:57:48,875 --> 00:57:51,166 Dorothy: I bought four places. 1132 00:57:51,249 --> 00:57:53,999 So which-- now which one of you wants to be where? 1133 00:57:54,083 --> 00:57:56,500 I wanna be there. I think we have that. 1134 00:57:56,583 --> 00:57:57,999 Eric: Yeah, you have to be next to dad. 1135 00:57:58,083 --> 00:57:59,458 And then the one back there, one back there. 1136 00:57:59,541 --> 00:58:02,124 -Eric: That works. -Dorothy: Yeah. Okay. 1137 00:58:02,208 --> 00:58:04,750 -Gillian: This is the weirdest conversation. -(laughs) 1138 00:58:04,833 --> 00:58:07,917 ♪ ♪ 1139 00:58:09,041 --> 00:58:11,333 (projector clicking) 1140 00:58:11,416 --> 00:58:15,208 Dorothy: I first met Mel in medical school at Yale. 1141 00:58:16,625 --> 00:58:18,458 I was a student, and he was 1142 00:58:18,541 --> 00:58:21,500 an assistant professor in psychiatry. 1143 00:58:21,583 --> 00:58:25,792 I bumped into him in the medical school library. 1144 00:58:25,875 --> 00:58:28,583 That night, I got a call. 1145 00:58:28,667 --> 00:58:30,541 He asked me out. 1146 00:58:30,625 --> 00:58:32,875 And I remember sitting in my chair, 1147 00:58:32,958 --> 00:58:35,999 and it spun, and just spinning around in it, 1148 00:58:36,083 --> 00:58:38,458 going, "Whee!" 1149 00:58:38,541 --> 00:58:43,083 I knew in a week I really, really liked this person, 1150 00:58:43,166 --> 00:58:45,208 and I didn't forgive Mel 1151 00:58:45,291 --> 00:58:48,625 because it took him two weeks to ask me to marry him. 1152 00:58:53,583 --> 00:58:54,541 (baby crying) 1153 00:58:54,625 --> 00:58:57,416 You know, he was a lot older than I. 1154 00:58:57,500 --> 00:59:00,500 And so, I spent a fair amount of time 1155 00:59:00,583 --> 00:59:03,458 when he was going off to meetings and things like that, 1156 00:59:03,541 --> 00:59:05,750 I was back here. 1157 00:59:07,124 --> 00:59:09,625 Gillian: When we were little, Mom brought us 1158 00:59:09,708 --> 00:59:13,041 to our music lessons, 1159 00:59:13,124 --> 00:59:16,416 and we'd do art projects with her. 1160 00:59:16,500 --> 00:59:19,541 Whereas my father, I remember 1161 00:59:19,625 --> 00:59:21,208 climbing over him and wrestling 1162 00:59:21,291 --> 00:59:23,958 in the living room, or stuff like that. 1163 00:59:24,041 --> 00:59:27,541 They were two very complementary forms 1164 00:59:27,625 --> 00:59:30,208 of bringing up a kid. 1165 00:59:30,291 --> 00:59:32,958 My father was the very playful one... 1166 00:59:34,249 --> 00:59:38,416 and my mom was kinda the inspirational one. 1167 00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:42,041 My career took off in a way I hadn't planned it. 1168 00:59:42,124 --> 00:59:44,625 ♪ ♪ 1169 00:59:44,708 --> 00:59:48,166 My work on juveniles condemned to death was cited 1170 00:59:48,249 --> 00:59:51,291 in several Supreme Court decisions, 1171 00:59:51,375 --> 00:59:55,500 but success did affect my family. 1172 00:59:55,583 --> 00:59:59,999 I made some teaching tapes of Arthur Shawcross. 1173 01:00:00,083 --> 01:00:03,500 And some of the things that he went through... 1174 01:00:03,583 --> 01:00:06,458 (childish): She squeezed my thingy. 1175 01:00:06,541 --> 01:00:10,917 ...were terribly unsettling to my kids. 1176 01:00:10,999 --> 01:00:13,583 Now, they're kind of interested in it. 1177 01:00:13,667 --> 01:00:15,500 (typing) 1178 01:00:17,792 --> 01:00:20,375 My mom does her writing by hand, 1179 01:00:20,458 --> 01:00:23,500 and then I type up what she's given me. 1180 01:00:23,583 --> 01:00:27,249 I'm like a fast hunt- and-peck-type typist, 1181 01:00:27,333 --> 01:00:29,249 so it could be worse. 1182 01:00:30,833 --> 01:00:33,041 (printing) 1183 01:00:33,124 --> 01:00:35,333 -(footsteps) -Dorothy: Hey, Eric? 1184 01:00:35,416 --> 01:00:37,249 -Eric: Hey, Mom! -Dorothy: Yeah? 1185 01:00:37,333 --> 01:00:40,166 -Eric: I'm done. -That's beautiful. 1186 01:00:40,249 --> 01:00:41,625 Thanks, Mom, but read it over 1187 01:00:41,708 --> 01:00:43,708 because I probably made a few mistakes. 1188 01:00:43,792 --> 01:00:45,333 -Dorothy: Okay. -I love you. 1189 01:00:45,416 --> 01:00:46,625 I love you. 1190 01:00:46,708 --> 01:00:48,375 Oh, thank you so much. 1191 01:00:48,458 --> 01:00:51,875 -You're so welcome. I'll be back soon. -Yeah, okay. 1192 01:00:56,583 --> 01:00:59,333 -Alright, I love you, Ma. -I love you. 1193 01:00:59,416 --> 01:01:01,249 -Uber carefully! -I will. 1194 01:01:01,333 --> 01:01:03,249 (door shuts) 1195 01:01:03,333 --> 01:01:04,958 Woman 1: I will never forget that moment, 1196 01:01:05,041 --> 01:01:07,166 -or never forget that day. -(glass breaking) 1197 01:01:07,249 --> 01:01:09,333 Woman 2: The loss, the tragedy. 1198 01:01:09,416 --> 01:01:12,583 ♪ ♪ 1199 01:01:14,958 --> 01:01:18,083 Woman 3: 1200 01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:21,792 Woman 4: The guy oughta just be killed. 1201 01:01:26,416 --> 01:01:29,416 Dorothy: Johnny Frank Garrett had climbed into 1202 01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:31,333 the window of a convent, 1203 01:01:31,416 --> 01:01:34,917 and he had gotten into the room of a nun. 1204 01:01:34,999 --> 01:01:36,833 He left all the fingerprints, 1205 01:01:36,917 --> 01:01:38,416 he left the knives. 1206 01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:41,124 This was not a genius we were dealing with. 1207 01:01:41,208 --> 01:01:45,500 (laughs) And an arch-criminal? Uh-uh. 1208 01:01:45,583 --> 01:01:48,249 Narrator: It was not always easy to understand Johnny Garrett. 1209 01:01:48,333 --> 01:01:50,333 He was forever changing. 1210 01:01:50,416 --> 01:01:52,291 Shortly after confessing, 1211 01:01:52,375 --> 01:01:55,249 he insisted that he had nothing to do with the murder. 1212 01:01:55,333 --> 01:01:58,041 Hence, he refused to sign the confession 1213 01:01:58,124 --> 01:02:00,041 he had just provided. 1214 01:02:00,124 --> 01:02:03,750 To the trial court, he was a liar, pure and simple. 1215 01:02:05,166 --> 01:02:06,875 Johnny Frank Garrett, 1216 01:02:06,958 --> 01:02:09,249 thief, rapist, murderer, liar, 1217 01:02:09,333 --> 01:02:12,583 was not crazy. He was bad. 1218 01:02:12,667 --> 01:02:14,917 Johnny was dispatched to death row in Huntsville 1219 01:02:14,999 --> 01:02:16,541 to await execution. 1220 01:02:16,625 --> 01:02:18,999 ♪ ♪ 1221 01:02:19,083 --> 01:02:21,041 We were doing a study 1222 01:02:21,124 --> 01:02:25,375 of 14 juveniles under the age of 18 1223 01:02:25,458 --> 01:02:27,124 who were sentenced to death. 1224 01:02:28,291 --> 01:02:31,041 Johnny related in a bizarre fashion, 1225 01:02:31,124 --> 01:02:33,541 and he talked to voices. 1226 01:02:33,625 --> 01:02:36,333 He clearly was hallucinating. 1227 01:02:38,208 --> 01:02:40,708 We wrote reports on everybody we saw 1228 01:02:40,792 --> 01:02:41,875 and sent them to lawyers, 1229 01:02:41,958 --> 01:02:44,708 but this one, I was more detailed about 1230 01:02:44,792 --> 01:02:47,500 because at that point, he was the sickest 1231 01:02:47,583 --> 01:02:50,458 of the death row people I had ever seen. 1232 01:02:50,541 --> 01:02:54,208 I'd never seen somebody so flamboyantly psychotic. 1233 01:02:55,667 --> 01:02:59,333 I diagnosed schizophrenia with brain damage 1234 01:02:59,416 --> 01:03:02,124 and a history of seizures. 1235 01:03:03,333 --> 01:03:06,249 But then, I saw a video. 1236 01:03:06,333 --> 01:03:08,416 "48 Hours" interviewed him. 1237 01:03:08,500 --> 01:03:10,124 You're saying you didn't commit the murder? 1238 01:03:10,208 --> 01:03:12,583 No, I didn't. I didn't commit neither one of 'em, 1239 01:03:12,667 --> 01:03:14,416 rape or murder. 1240 01:03:14,500 --> 01:03:17,333 The hell would I go and do somethin' like that for? 1241 01:03:17,416 --> 01:03:19,166 Reporter: Johnny Garrett claims he talks 1242 01:03:19,249 --> 01:03:20,375 to his dead Aunt Barbara... 1243 01:03:20,458 --> 01:03:23,083 Sometimes she'll answer, sometimes she won't. 1244 01:03:23,166 --> 01:03:25,958 Reporter: ...who he says often appears in his death row cell. 1245 01:03:26,041 --> 01:03:28,833 -What does she tell you? -That they're not gonna kill me. 1246 01:03:28,917 --> 01:03:31,166 That they can't kill me. 1247 01:03:31,249 --> 01:03:34,291 Dorothy: Immediately, I realized he's a multiple. 1248 01:03:34,375 --> 01:03:37,083 That's all she'll say is they cannot kill me. 1249 01:03:37,166 --> 01:03:40,625 Dorothy: Years later, I was reading the "Times." 1250 01:03:40,708 --> 01:03:42,958 "Pope asks for clemency 1251 01:03:43,041 --> 01:03:46,166 for death row inmate Johnny Frank Garrett." 1252 01:03:46,249 --> 01:03:48,249 And I couldn't believe it. 1253 01:03:48,333 --> 01:03:50,124 (church bell ringing) 1254 01:03:50,208 --> 01:03:52,416 Narrator: Ann Richards, the governor of Texas, 1255 01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:54,249 found herself in a quandary. 1256 01:03:54,333 --> 01:03:56,708 According to the material she had read, 1257 01:03:56,792 --> 01:03:59,958 the condemned was obviously demented. 1258 01:04:00,041 --> 01:04:02,500 Texas was about to execute a crazy man 1259 01:04:02,583 --> 01:04:05,249 for an act committed as a crazy boy. 1260 01:04:05,333 --> 01:04:08,041 If there was ever a case deserving of clemency, 1261 01:04:08,124 --> 01:04:09,875 this was it. 1262 01:04:09,958 --> 01:04:13,208 On the other hand, Texas was still the no-nonsense state. 1263 01:04:13,291 --> 01:04:14,500 ♪ ♪ 1264 01:04:14,583 --> 01:04:17,166 In fact, Texas was running neck-and-neck with Florida 1265 01:04:17,249 --> 01:04:18,917 for the distinction of executing 1266 01:04:18,999 --> 01:04:20,625 the greatest number of criminals 1267 01:04:20,708 --> 01:04:23,541 since the death penalty was re-instituted 1268 01:04:23,625 --> 01:04:25,750 in 1976. 1269 01:04:26,750 --> 01:04:28,166 No governor of Texas 1270 01:04:28,249 --> 01:04:29,583 who granted clemency outright 1271 01:04:29,667 --> 01:04:31,041 could rely on reelection. 1272 01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:37,500 The Texas governor would convene a clemency board. 1273 01:04:37,583 --> 01:04:39,792 It would act as another jury. 1274 01:04:39,875 --> 01:04:41,625 If, after pondering all the evidence, 1275 01:04:41,708 --> 01:04:44,208 it voted to spare the prisoner, 1276 01:04:44,291 --> 01:04:45,875 so be it. 1277 01:04:45,958 --> 01:04:47,124 Nobody could then accuse 1278 01:04:47,208 --> 01:04:50,875 this governor of being soft on crime. 1279 01:04:50,958 --> 01:04:54,958 Who was the political pawn whose life hung in the balance? 1280 01:04:55,041 --> 01:04:57,249 Johnny Frank Garrett. 1281 01:04:58,625 --> 01:05:01,208 He was coming up for a clemency trial. 1282 01:05:01,291 --> 01:05:03,208 Dorothy: See, you can see a light in here, 1283 01:05:03,291 --> 01:05:05,541 and you can see if it's playing. 1284 01:05:05,625 --> 01:05:08,041 So I found out who his lawyer was, 1285 01:05:08,124 --> 01:05:10,875 and called her, and I said, 1286 01:05:10,958 --> 01:05:13,333 "I goofed. I made a mistake. 1287 01:05:13,416 --> 01:05:16,041 "I will come down to Texas, 1288 01:05:16,124 --> 01:05:17,833 no fee, no charge, nothing." 1289 01:05:17,917 --> 01:05:22,041 It's pretty clear that he dissociates. 1290 01:05:22,124 --> 01:05:25,500 He had a persona, a violent one, Aaron Shockman. 1291 01:05:25,583 --> 01:05:28,124 Dorothy: 1292 01:05:29,333 --> 01:05:30,999 (low whistle) 1293 01:05:33,208 --> 01:05:35,208 On about-- I guess I had to be 1294 01:05:35,291 --> 01:05:37,166 in fifth grade 'cause I met him-- 1295 01:05:37,249 --> 01:05:39,917 Well, didn't meet him. I... 1296 01:05:39,999 --> 01:05:42,583 -Dorothy: How did you meet him first? -I got beat up. 1297 01:05:42,667 --> 01:05:44,833 And what happened when you got beat up? 1298 01:05:44,917 --> 01:05:48,166 -I became Aaron Shockman. -At that time? 1299 01:05:48,917 --> 01:05:51,083 And what did you do? 1300 01:05:51,166 --> 01:05:53,083 -Well, he beat them up. -Really? 1301 01:05:53,166 --> 01:05:55,667 He's older than me... 1302 01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:57,625 -mentally. -He's older than you? 1303 01:05:57,708 --> 01:06:00,875 -Intellectually. -Mm-hmm. 1304 01:06:00,958 --> 01:06:04,124 -He's smarter than I am. -Mm-hmm. 1305 01:06:04,208 --> 01:06:07,375 Dorothy: He would pause between what he was telling me, 1306 01:06:07,458 --> 01:06:09,833 and his eyes would kind of go up, 1307 01:06:09,917 --> 01:06:11,875 and you see that often 1308 01:06:11,958 --> 01:06:14,625 with people who are talking to someone 1309 01:06:14,708 --> 01:06:15,875 in their head. 1310 01:06:15,958 --> 01:06:17,375 Dorothy: 1311 01:06:23,416 --> 01:06:24,583 Dorothy: That's right. 1312 01:06:28,541 --> 01:06:29,958 Dorothy: Yeah. 1313 01:06:30,041 --> 01:06:31,500 Johnny: 1314 01:06:31,583 --> 01:06:33,041 ♪ ♪ 1315 01:06:35,166 --> 01:06:36,708 Dorothy: He needed someone to take pain. 1316 01:06:42,541 --> 01:06:43,875 Dorothy: 1317 01:06:47,458 --> 01:06:48,416 Dorothy: 1318 01:06:49,500 --> 01:06:50,958 Dorothy: 1319 01:06:52,583 --> 01:06:53,583 Dorothy: Yes? 1320 01:06:55,333 --> 01:06:57,208 Dorothy: Yes? Yes? 1321 01:06:58,833 --> 01:07:01,416 Dorothy: 1322 01:07:05,875 --> 01:07:06,958 (indistinct) 1323 01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:14,625 Narrator: I'd once heard a lecture by an FBI agent. 1324 01:07:14,708 --> 01:07:17,833 He talked about how children used in pornography 1325 01:07:17,917 --> 01:07:20,541 feared for the rest of their lives that their identities 1326 01:07:20,625 --> 01:07:23,166 and the perverted acts they were once forced to perform 1327 01:07:23,249 --> 01:07:25,708 will someday come to light. 1328 01:07:25,792 --> 01:07:28,708 Johnny was more terrified of being recognized 1329 01:07:28,792 --> 01:07:31,625 in the pornographic films he had made as a child 1330 01:07:31,708 --> 01:07:34,333 than he was of his impending execution. 1331 01:07:36,625 --> 01:07:38,291 Dorothy: Mm-hmm. 1332 01:07:41,999 --> 01:07:43,875 Aaron was talking with me. 1333 01:07:43,958 --> 01:07:46,291 Again, Johnny's eyes 1334 01:07:46,375 --> 01:07:47,708 kinda looked up, 1335 01:07:47,792 --> 01:07:50,416 and I said, "What's happening?" 1336 01:07:50,500 --> 01:07:52,249 Dorothy: Is someone talking to you now? 1337 01:07:52,333 --> 01:07:54,291 Who's talking to you, Aaron? 1338 01:07:54,375 --> 01:07:56,750 -What's go-- What's happening? -That bitch. 1339 01:07:56,833 --> 01:07:58,708 Dorothy: Aaron said, "That bitch Barbara, 1340 01:07:58,792 --> 01:08:00,291 she wants to get rid of me." 1341 01:08:00,375 --> 01:08:03,875 -Gibney: Aunt Barbara? -Yeah. There was Aunt Barbara. 1342 01:08:03,958 --> 01:08:06,333 She was another alter of Johnny's, 1343 01:08:06,416 --> 01:08:08,166 and she was near-sighted. 1344 01:08:08,249 --> 01:08:10,583 -I can't see you. -Dorothy: What? 1345 01:08:10,667 --> 01:08:12,333 I can't see you. 1346 01:08:12,416 --> 01:08:15,249 -Dorothy: What do you mean, you can't see me? -You're blurred. 1347 01:08:15,333 --> 01:08:19,625 -Dorothy: And what's your name? -Barbara. 1348 01:08:19,708 --> 01:08:21,750 Narrator: A condemned person must understand 1349 01:08:21,833 --> 01:08:25,249 the nature of the crime for which he is being executed. 1350 01:08:25,333 --> 01:08:27,249 He must also understand the fact 1351 01:08:27,333 --> 01:08:29,458 that he is about to die for it. 1352 01:08:29,541 --> 01:08:33,375 In Johnny's case, Aunt Barbara had promised repeatedly 1353 01:08:33,458 --> 01:08:35,416 that Johnny would not die. 1354 01:08:35,500 --> 01:08:38,875 I'm not gonna let that happen to him. 1355 01:08:38,958 --> 01:08:41,124 -Dorothy: What do you mean? -I'm gonna stop it. 1356 01:08:41,208 --> 01:08:43,375 Dorothy: How could you do that? 1357 01:08:43,458 --> 01:08:45,667 They will kill me, not him. 1358 01:08:46,750 --> 01:08:49,625 Dorothy: Really? They would kill you, 1359 01:08:49,708 --> 01:08:51,667 and then what would happen with him? 1360 01:08:51,750 --> 01:08:53,917 He would still be alive. 1361 01:08:56,291 --> 01:08:59,375 ♪ ♪ 1362 01:09:00,541 --> 01:09:03,333 Dorothy: I testified the following day. 1363 01:09:03,416 --> 01:09:05,041 We had reams of data 1364 01:09:05,124 --> 01:09:08,458 about his intelligence, his mental condition. 1365 01:09:08,541 --> 01:09:12,291 This is how you create a psychotic individual. 1366 01:09:12,375 --> 01:09:14,416 And we had clips 1367 01:09:14,500 --> 01:09:16,667 of him in some of these states. 1368 01:09:16,750 --> 01:09:19,208 When he doesn't want to remember... 1369 01:09:20,208 --> 01:09:21,958 he gives me the memories. 1370 01:09:22,041 --> 01:09:26,041 Dorothy: But the clemency board didn't give a damn. 1371 01:09:26,124 --> 01:09:28,750 Reporter: Board members came out to vote 17-to-1 1372 01:09:28,833 --> 01:09:30,708 to carry out the execution. 1373 01:09:30,792 --> 01:09:32,208 Garrett's only real hope now 1374 01:09:32,291 --> 01:09:34,333 is a personal pardon from the governor. 1375 01:09:34,416 --> 01:09:37,792 That's unlikely, and he faces death by lethal injection... 1376 01:09:39,249 --> 01:09:40,792 Dorothy: Yeah. 1377 01:09:46,083 --> 01:09:47,583 Dorothy: Yeah. 1378 01:09:50,583 --> 01:09:51,458 (door slams) 1379 01:09:51,541 --> 01:09:53,375 Narrator: To no one's surprise, 1380 01:09:53,458 --> 01:09:55,750 Aunt Barbara's plan did not come off, 1381 01:09:55,833 --> 01:09:58,917 and the poison flowed into Johnny's veins. 1382 01:09:58,999 --> 01:10:01,999 Witness accounts of the execution lead me to believe 1383 01:10:02,083 --> 01:10:04,166 that before the poison was injected, 1384 01:10:04,249 --> 01:10:07,375 it was Aaron, someone far tougher than Johnny, 1385 01:10:07,458 --> 01:10:10,958 who came to help him through his final ordeal. 1386 01:10:11,041 --> 01:10:13,041 Dorothy: His last words were something like, 1387 01:10:13,124 --> 01:10:14,958 "I'm sorry to my mother, 1388 01:10:15,041 --> 01:10:17,958 "sorry to the family of the nun, 1389 01:10:18,041 --> 01:10:20,999 and the rest of you can go fuck yourselves." 1390 01:10:21,083 --> 01:10:22,625 And I said, "Way to go." 1391 01:10:22,708 --> 01:10:24,541 Crowd (singing): ♪ Na-na, na, na! ♪ 1392 01:10:24,625 --> 01:10:26,625 ♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪ 1393 01:10:26,708 --> 01:10:28,166 ♪ Goodbye ♪ 1394 01:10:28,249 --> 01:10:30,208 Reporter: To this group of mostly college students, 1395 01:10:30,291 --> 01:10:31,792 Johnny Frank Garrett represented 1396 01:10:31,875 --> 01:10:33,792 all that's wrong with our legal system. 1397 01:10:33,875 --> 01:10:35,166 With chants and candles, 1398 01:10:35,249 --> 01:10:37,833 they applauded Garrett's death by lethal injection, 1399 01:10:37,917 --> 01:10:39,999 saying the punishment must fit the crime. 1400 01:10:40,083 --> 01:10:41,917 Crowd (chanting): Texas, you know! 1401 01:10:41,999 --> 01:10:43,541 Death row has got to go! 1402 01:10:43,625 --> 01:10:45,166 Reporter: On the same side of the street, 1403 01:10:45,249 --> 01:10:46,375 but with an opposite view, 1404 01:10:46,458 --> 01:10:48,375 were members of Amnesty International. 1405 01:10:48,458 --> 01:10:49,958 The human rights group argue 1406 01:10:50,041 --> 01:10:52,750 that by executing a mentally unstable convict, 1407 01:10:52,833 --> 01:10:55,124 a greater crime was committed. 1408 01:10:55,208 --> 01:10:56,583 These hardened criminals 1409 01:10:56,667 --> 01:11:00,124 will never again murder, rape, or deal drugs. 1410 01:11:00,208 --> 01:11:02,166 As governor, I made sure they received 1411 01:11:02,249 --> 01:11:04,375 the ultimate punishment, death. 1412 01:11:04,458 --> 01:11:06,375 And Texas is a safer place for it. 1413 01:11:06,458 --> 01:11:08,583 Yeager: Back when we were doing a lot of this work, 1414 01:11:08,667 --> 01:11:12,249 the tenor of our culture at that time was really 1415 01:11:12,333 --> 01:11:14,750 crime and punishment, and not rehabilitation. 1416 01:11:14,833 --> 01:11:17,249 They are not just gangs of kids anymore. 1417 01:11:17,333 --> 01:11:21,124 They are often the kinds of kids that are called super predators. 1418 01:11:21,208 --> 01:11:23,166 No conscience, no empathy. 1419 01:11:23,249 --> 01:11:25,083 So I don't wanna ask 1420 01:11:25,166 --> 01:11:27,124 what made them do this. 1421 01:11:27,208 --> 01:11:29,999 They must be taken off the street. 1422 01:11:30,083 --> 01:11:31,958 Commercial: She's the only Democrat for governor 1423 01:11:32,041 --> 01:11:33,583 for the death penalty. 1424 01:11:33,667 --> 01:11:35,458 She's Dianne Feinstein. 1425 01:11:35,541 --> 01:11:37,667 When Dorothy and I first started working together, 1426 01:11:37,750 --> 01:11:40,375 and we were seeing our juveniles that were growing up, 1427 01:11:40,458 --> 01:11:42,083 so these were kids that she had seen at 14. 1428 01:11:42,166 --> 01:11:44,041 I saw them when they were in their 20s. 1429 01:11:44,124 --> 01:11:45,875 Man: Picture of a bird with a long... 1430 01:11:45,958 --> 01:11:47,708 Yeager: And, initially, 1431 01:11:47,792 --> 01:11:50,875 the state prisons had a rehabilitative model. 1432 01:11:50,958 --> 01:11:54,375 So they were teaching people how to read, write, 1433 01:11:54,458 --> 01:11:57,541 balance a checkbook, get a job, write a resume. 1434 01:11:57,625 --> 01:11:59,625 And then as we were getting more and more 1435 01:11:59,708 --> 01:12:02,917 into the work we were doing, the culture was changing 1436 01:12:02,999 --> 01:12:05,458 and the politicians were getting the message 1437 01:12:05,541 --> 01:12:08,708 that crime and punishment is what's important. 1438 01:12:08,792 --> 01:12:10,416 We don't want to rehabilitate. 1439 01:12:10,500 --> 01:12:12,500 It's too expensive, and who cares anyway? 1440 01:12:12,583 --> 01:12:14,875 If you come into our state 1441 01:12:14,958 --> 01:12:16,833 and you kill one of our children, 1442 01:12:16,917 --> 01:12:18,750 you kill a police officer, 1443 01:12:18,833 --> 01:12:20,500 you're involved with another crime 1444 01:12:20,583 --> 01:12:22,833 and you kill one of our citizens, 1445 01:12:22,917 --> 01:12:25,833 you will face the ultimate justice 1446 01:12:25,917 --> 01:12:29,416 in the state of Texas, and that is you will be executed. 1447 01:12:29,500 --> 01:12:31,583 -Moderator: What do you make of-- -(applause) 1448 01:12:31,667 --> 01:12:34,500 Burr: The rationales for the death penalty 1449 01:12:34,583 --> 01:12:37,999 have always been retribution and deterrence. 1450 01:12:38,083 --> 01:12:41,833 Keeping other people from engaging in the same behavior. 1451 01:12:41,917 --> 01:12:44,999 And all the studies, social science studies, have shown that 1452 01:12:45,083 --> 01:12:47,708 there's no deterrent effect from executions. 1453 01:12:47,792 --> 01:12:52,333 In fact, executions sort of bring 1454 01:12:52,416 --> 01:12:55,500 the act of killing into, uh, 1455 01:12:55,583 --> 01:12:58,458 the mainstream as acceptable. 1456 01:12:58,541 --> 01:13:00,500 In states where executions have gone up, 1457 01:13:00,583 --> 01:13:03,708 homicide rates have often gone up. 1458 01:13:03,792 --> 01:13:05,625 Dorothy: The legal system at this point 1459 01:13:05,708 --> 01:13:10,208 is most interested in incapacitating these people, 1460 01:13:10,291 --> 01:13:13,249 and you can't really blame them for that. 1461 01:13:13,333 --> 01:13:16,083 Their interest is in the public safety. 1462 01:13:16,166 --> 01:13:18,500 But, if you have that and only that, 1463 01:13:18,583 --> 01:13:22,083 and you don't try to figure out what it is that creates 1464 01:13:22,166 --> 01:13:23,541 these very dangerous people, 1465 01:13:23,625 --> 01:13:26,458 then you just run the risk of making 1466 01:13:26,541 --> 01:13:29,833 more and more and more prisons, and never preventing. 1467 01:13:29,917 --> 01:13:32,541 ♪ ♪ 1468 01:13:32,625 --> 01:13:34,416 Narrator: Ever since 1976, 1469 01:13:34,500 --> 01:13:37,291 juries have been obliged to consider the mitigating 1470 01:13:37,375 --> 01:13:40,625 as well as the aggravating circumstances of a murder. 1471 01:13:40,708 --> 01:13:42,875 Aggravating circumstances focus, 1472 01:13:42,958 --> 01:13:46,416 for the most part, on the grotesqueness of the crimes. 1473 01:13:46,500 --> 01:13:50,083 Was the victim tortured or raped or mutilated? 1474 01:13:50,166 --> 01:13:53,124 Was there more than one victim? 1475 01:13:53,208 --> 01:13:55,291 Then there are the mitigating circumstances. 1476 01:13:55,375 --> 01:13:58,500 These often focus on the defendant's abusive childhood 1477 01:13:58,583 --> 01:14:01,375 and on the issues of mental health. 1478 01:14:01,458 --> 01:14:03,999 Herein lies the contradiction. 1479 01:14:04,083 --> 01:14:05,750 The gruesomeness of the murder 1480 01:14:05,833 --> 01:14:07,958 is directly proportional 1481 01:14:08,041 --> 01:14:09,541 to the craziness of the murderer. 1482 01:14:11,500 --> 01:14:14,291 Now, ask a jury to wrestle with that equation 1483 01:14:14,375 --> 01:14:19,083 and come up with an answer. It can't be done. 1484 01:14:19,166 --> 01:14:23,416 Burr: The Supreme Court has always used that word "compassion" 1485 01:14:23,500 --> 01:14:27,625 in describing what's important about mitigation. 1486 01:14:27,708 --> 01:14:29,833 That it's something that allows 1487 01:14:29,917 --> 01:14:33,375 a compassionate impulse to work in jurors. 1488 01:14:33,458 --> 01:14:35,833 My hope, and others' hope, 1489 01:14:35,917 --> 01:14:37,792 in our community was that it would 1490 01:14:37,875 --> 01:14:39,458 expand to... 1491 01:14:39,541 --> 01:14:41,792 a view that serious mental illness 1492 01:14:41,875 --> 01:14:43,708 would exempt people from 1493 01:14:43,792 --> 01:14:45,999 even being sentenced to death to start with. 1494 01:14:46,083 --> 01:14:48,124 It hasn't, hasn't moved that direction. 1495 01:14:48,208 --> 01:14:50,208 Are the courts becoming more receptive? 1496 01:14:50,291 --> 01:14:52,917 Are juries becoming more receptive to this? 1497 01:14:52,999 --> 01:14:54,416 -Dorothy: No. -No. 1498 01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:56,375 Sawyer: This is Yale psychiatrist Dorothy Lewis 1499 01:14:56,458 --> 01:15:00,625 and her partner, neurologist Jonathan Pincus of Georgetown University. 1500 01:15:00,708 --> 01:15:03,917 They're trying to get courts to give Multiple Personality 1501 01:15:03,999 --> 01:15:05,999 different treatment under the law. 1502 01:15:06,083 --> 01:15:08,667 Which brings us to David Wilson, 1503 01:15:08,750 --> 01:15:10,750 convicted of murdering a stranger 1504 01:15:10,833 --> 01:15:12,458 who stopped to help when he thought 1505 01:15:12,541 --> 01:15:14,667 Wilson's car was broken down on the highway... 1506 01:15:14,750 --> 01:15:16,958 Man 1: Was shot point-blank with a 12-gauge shotgun... 1507 01:15:17,041 --> 01:15:18,583 Man 2: ...wallet still in the glove box. 1508 01:15:18,667 --> 01:15:20,958 -A savage act... -Man 3: What can you say after something 1509 01:15:21,041 --> 01:15:22,416 so shocking happens? 1510 01:15:22,500 --> 01:15:23,958 ♪ ♪ 1511 01:15:24,041 --> 01:15:25,708 Dorothy: David went into 1512 01:15:25,792 --> 01:15:27,917 some kind of state, 1513 01:15:27,999 --> 01:15:29,833 and he mistook 1514 01:15:29,917 --> 01:15:31,999 the guy who'd stopped to help him 1515 01:15:32,083 --> 01:15:35,500 for somebody dangerous, somebody in his life, 1516 01:15:35,583 --> 01:15:38,625 -and shot him and killed him. -(gunshot) 1517 01:15:38,708 --> 01:15:42,083 David: Wilson: Personally, I remember being in, in the car, 1518 01:15:42,166 --> 01:15:45,166 -but in the backseat sleeping. -Dorothy: Okay. 1519 01:15:45,249 --> 01:15:47,375 Wilson: I didn't know anybody got killed. 1520 01:15:47,458 --> 01:15:49,583 (video static) 1521 01:15:52,875 --> 01:15:54,541 -Dorothy: Is it working? -Man: Mm-hmm. 1522 01:15:54,625 --> 01:15:56,541 Dorothy: I went and examined him 1523 01:15:56,625 --> 01:15:59,625 after he was found guilty and sentenced to death. 1524 01:16:00,625 --> 01:16:02,541 I was quite startled 1525 01:16:02,625 --> 01:16:05,124 when I saw he had scars 1526 01:16:05,208 --> 01:16:08,792 all over his chest and all over his back, 1527 01:16:08,875 --> 01:16:11,583 and there was a burn scar. 1528 01:16:12,958 --> 01:16:14,208 Wilson: 1529 01:16:14,291 --> 01:16:15,249 Dorothy: 1530 01:16:17,667 --> 01:16:18,792 Dorothy: 1531 01:16:29,208 --> 01:16:32,166 Dorothy: He had an alter named Juan. 1532 01:16:32,249 --> 01:16:34,667 Man: 1533 01:16:37,500 --> 01:16:38,667 Man: Juan? 1534 01:16:42,958 --> 01:16:44,917 Man: Lee? 1535 01:16:44,999 --> 01:16:47,249 Dorothy: And then he had another alter. 1536 01:16:47,333 --> 01:16:49,625 I think there were three of them. 1537 01:16:51,583 --> 01:16:52,667 Man: 1538 01:16:59,333 --> 01:17:01,999 -Man: -Dorothy: 1539 01:17:03,875 --> 01:17:06,541 Dorothy: 1540 01:17:08,750 --> 01:17:10,541 Dorothy: 1541 01:17:12,416 --> 01:17:13,875 Dorothy: 1542 01:17:15,625 --> 01:17:16,583 Dorothy: I do. 1543 01:17:17,166 --> 01:17:18,833 Dorothy: 1544 01:17:28,667 --> 01:17:31,416 Dorothy: David's father used to hang David up 1545 01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:35,375 by his stomach, with his trousers off. 1546 01:17:44,375 --> 01:17:45,541 Dorothy: Yeah? 1547 01:18:06,833 --> 01:18:10,083 -Dorothy: You... -(heavy breathing) 1548 01:18:23,249 --> 01:18:25,416 (sniffling) 1549 01:18:28,708 --> 01:18:30,291 Dorothy: 1550 01:18:36,083 --> 01:18:37,458 Dorothy: 1551 01:18:39,291 --> 01:18:40,458 (sniffles) 1552 01:18:44,333 --> 01:18:46,333 Dorothy: 1553 01:18:46,416 --> 01:18:48,124 Dorothy: You don't remember... 1554 01:18:49,416 --> 01:18:53,541 What is, to you, the most telling thing 1555 01:18:53,625 --> 01:18:54,958 that convinces you? 1556 01:18:55,041 --> 01:18:57,291 -It's a constellation of things-- -And you've documented 1557 01:18:57,375 --> 01:19:00,041 -this independently? Not just his word? -Oh, yes. 1558 01:19:00,124 --> 01:19:01,667 No. Absolutely. 1559 01:19:01,750 --> 01:19:03,458 Because again, people sitting at home would say 1560 01:19:03,541 --> 01:19:05,208 he's got a lot to gain here. 1561 01:19:05,291 --> 01:19:07,917 -Well here, you know... -What? What does he have to gain? 1562 01:19:07,999 --> 01:19:11,541 -Getting hospitalized instead of jailed. -Dorothy: He doesn't want that. 1563 01:19:11,625 --> 01:19:13,875 I had a different impression from yours, 1564 01:19:13,958 --> 01:19:16,291 which was that he really did not want us 1565 01:19:16,375 --> 01:19:17,750 to see these switches. 1566 01:19:17,833 --> 01:19:20,999 And indeed, he doesn't really believe that they occur. 1567 01:19:23,958 --> 01:19:25,667 Dorothy: David touched me. 1568 01:19:25,750 --> 01:19:30,750 There's something about him that was so vulnerable and, uh, 1569 01:19:30,833 --> 01:19:34,541 and so innocent. There was a part that was... 1570 01:19:34,625 --> 01:19:37,083 ♪ ♪ 1571 01:19:37,166 --> 01:19:40,625 I got called to testify at the appeal. 1572 01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:44,249 And David was there. 1573 01:19:44,333 --> 01:19:48,750 And I was explaining his dissociative states, 1574 01:19:48,833 --> 01:19:52,917 and I stopped myself, and I said, "Your Honor, 1575 01:19:52,999 --> 01:19:55,041 "may I interrupt for a moment? 1576 01:19:55,124 --> 01:19:58,291 "Because David is not here right now, 1577 01:19:58,375 --> 01:20:01,041 but Juan has come." 1578 01:20:01,875 --> 01:20:04,291 He switched. 1579 01:20:04,375 --> 01:20:07,124 It was after that hearing 1580 01:20:07,208 --> 01:20:10,541 that the judge reduced the sentence to life. 1581 01:20:14,041 --> 01:20:15,792 -Dorothy: Do you remember me? -Yes. 1582 01:20:15,875 --> 01:20:18,958 -Yeah? What's my name? That's right. -Dorothy. 1583 01:20:19,041 --> 01:20:21,625 Dorothy: No civilized nation throughout history 1584 01:20:21,708 --> 01:20:24,041 has executed its insane. 1585 01:20:24,124 --> 01:20:26,583 So from a moral point of view, 1586 01:20:26,667 --> 01:20:29,124 you don't kill people who, 1587 01:20:29,208 --> 01:20:31,375 because of an illness, 1588 01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:33,999 act in an uncontrollable way. 1589 01:20:34,083 --> 01:20:37,083 Sawyer: But does this really mitigate 1590 01:20:37,166 --> 01:20:39,833 the horrible crime he committed? 1591 01:20:39,917 --> 01:20:42,458 He should be punished and punished severely, 1592 01:20:42,541 --> 01:20:44,750 but should he be put to death for that 1593 01:20:44,833 --> 01:20:47,166 if the main operative factors 1594 01:20:47,249 --> 01:20:50,833 in producing his violence were completely out of his control? 1595 01:20:50,917 --> 01:20:53,833 But under the law, he is still competent enough 1596 01:20:53,917 --> 01:20:55,792 to know right from wrong. 1597 01:20:55,875 --> 01:20:59,999 The issue is really whether the individual 1598 01:21:00,083 --> 01:21:03,166 has that degree of control 1599 01:21:03,249 --> 01:21:05,750 to conform his behavior 1600 01:21:05,833 --> 01:21:07,291 to the requirements of law. 1601 01:21:07,375 --> 01:21:08,833 ♪ ♪ 1602 01:21:08,917 --> 01:21:11,041 (banging) 1603 01:21:11,124 --> 01:21:13,833 Narrator: My daughter believes that the judge who sentences 1604 01:21:13,917 --> 01:21:16,375 a person to death should be responsible 1605 01:21:16,458 --> 01:21:18,792 for carrying out his sentence. 1606 01:21:18,875 --> 01:21:21,500 He should spring the trapdoor under the gallows, 1607 01:21:21,583 --> 01:21:23,708 press the button to deliver the current, 1608 01:21:23,792 --> 01:21:26,041 inject the poison. 1609 01:21:26,124 --> 01:21:29,291 -(church bells ringing) -She thinks then there would be fewer executions. 1610 01:21:29,375 --> 01:21:30,667 Most people, she believes, 1611 01:21:30,750 --> 01:21:33,708 would have trouble doing those things. 1612 01:21:33,792 --> 01:21:35,416 I'm not so sure. 1613 01:21:35,500 --> 01:21:39,750 Game Voice: Do you wonder what it is like to witness an electrocution? 1614 01:21:39,833 --> 01:21:42,375 Insert 25 cents, 1615 01:21:42,458 --> 01:21:44,917 then quickly pull the control handles 1616 01:21:44,999 --> 01:21:46,333 to administer capital punishment. 1617 01:21:46,416 --> 01:21:48,333 (electricity buzzing) 1618 01:21:48,416 --> 01:21:51,958 (clanking, banging) 1619 01:21:55,458 --> 01:21:58,708 Narrator: My question is, within our own society, 1620 01:21:58,792 --> 01:22:00,833 are there individuals who are able 1621 01:22:00,917 --> 01:22:02,583 to kill repeatedly, 1622 01:22:02,667 --> 01:22:05,958 and whose only psychopathology, if you could call it that, 1623 01:22:06,041 --> 01:22:08,833 is a lack of empathy for other human beings? 1624 01:22:10,041 --> 01:22:12,583 Are there real sociopaths? 1625 01:22:12,667 --> 01:22:14,458 ♪ ♪ 1626 01:22:14,541 --> 01:22:16,083 Reporter (on TV): The man on the left has killed almost 1627 01:22:16,166 --> 01:22:17,333 20 men in Louisiana 1628 01:22:17,416 --> 01:22:19,667 since December 1983. 1629 01:22:19,750 --> 01:22:21,625 He is sought after by the authorities, 1630 01:22:21,708 --> 01:22:24,999 -but only when it is time to kill again. -(chuckles) 1631 01:22:25,083 --> 01:22:28,291 Sam Jones is an executioner. 1632 01:22:28,375 --> 01:22:30,667 How many people do you think you've executed? 1633 01:22:30,750 --> 01:22:32,792 Sam Jones (on TV): Uh, I don't know the exact number. 1634 01:22:32,875 --> 01:22:35,583 Eighteen to 19, I'm not sure. I lose track. 1635 01:22:35,667 --> 01:22:37,917 Reporter: Sam usually works out of the death house 1636 01:22:37,999 --> 01:22:39,999 at the Angola State Prison in Louisiana, 1637 01:22:40,083 --> 01:22:43,375 but today, he's some 1,148 miles away, 1638 01:22:43,458 --> 01:22:45,500 up in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where he's working 1639 01:22:45,583 --> 01:22:48,708 at his other job as a licensed electrician. 1640 01:22:51,041 --> 01:22:53,583 Yeager: He was a traveling executioner. 1641 01:22:53,667 --> 01:22:56,999 So he would go wherever the execution needed to be. 1642 01:22:57,083 --> 01:22:58,917 "People" magazine had found this guy, 1643 01:22:58,999 --> 01:23:00,917 and I think he was probably advertising 1644 01:23:00,999 --> 01:23:03,667 his services pretty widely. 1645 01:23:03,750 --> 01:23:04,708 (laughs) 1646 01:23:04,792 --> 01:23:06,124 Jones (on TV): Warden, this is Sam Jones. 1647 01:23:06,208 --> 01:23:09,124 I was checking to see if I had any dates coming up. 1648 01:23:09,208 --> 01:23:11,917 Dorothy: He executed some of my clients. 1649 01:23:14,458 --> 01:23:17,958 He lived in a trailer park in Louisiana. 1650 01:23:18,041 --> 01:23:22,333 Cathy and I go down, and we meet this guy. 1651 01:23:22,416 --> 01:23:24,375 Yeager: I think I had said to you before, 1652 01:23:24,458 --> 01:23:27,750 not too many people have made me frightened. 1653 01:23:28,708 --> 01:23:29,917 He did. 1654 01:23:29,999 --> 01:23:32,041 Dorothy: Sam came with, I think, a six-pack, 1655 01:23:32,124 --> 01:23:34,500 and he opened for me 1656 01:23:34,583 --> 01:23:36,833 and for him, and we started talking. 1657 01:23:36,917 --> 01:23:38,541 Are you ready? 1658 01:23:38,625 --> 01:23:41,249 Dorothy: 1659 01:23:47,416 --> 01:23:48,416 Dorothy: Yeah. 1660 01:23:57,958 --> 01:23:59,375 Mm-hmm. 1661 01:24:03,833 --> 01:24:05,083 Mm-hmm. 1662 01:24:06,541 --> 01:24:10,375 He had no insight into what this was doing to him... 1663 01:24:10,458 --> 01:24:11,833 He, uh... 1664 01:24:20,500 --> 01:24:22,500 Narrator: Now, I had met someone who told me 1665 01:24:22,583 --> 01:24:25,875 he had no qualms about killing anyone, 1666 01:24:25,958 --> 01:24:28,083 man, woman, or child. 1667 01:24:33,500 --> 01:24:34,999 Dorothy: 1668 01:24:39,708 --> 01:24:41,625 Narrator: Was Sam Jones the character 1669 01:24:41,708 --> 01:24:44,166 I'd been seeking for years? 1670 01:24:44,249 --> 01:24:47,333 The cool, premeditated killer without a trace 1671 01:24:47,416 --> 01:24:49,999 of psychosis or brain damage? 1672 01:24:50,083 --> 01:24:53,083 ♪ ♪ 1673 01:24:53,166 --> 01:24:57,249 I did all this stuff that I do with my murderers. 1674 01:24:57,333 --> 01:24:58,667 Dorothy: 1675 01:25:10,999 --> 01:25:12,708 Dorothy: Yeah. Like what? 1676 01:25:17,583 --> 01:25:19,583 Why? Oh really? 1677 01:25:19,667 --> 01:25:21,792 Dorothy: 1678 01:25:27,708 --> 01:25:29,291 Dorothy: 1679 01:25:37,124 --> 01:25:39,541 Dorothy: 1680 01:25:43,041 --> 01:25:44,249 Dorothy: 1681 01:25:52,917 --> 01:25:53,875 Dorothy: 1682 01:25:58,500 --> 01:26:01,041 Dorothy: Sam was as confused and muddle-headed, 1683 01:26:01,124 --> 01:26:03,291 as battered and beaten, as the violent men 1684 01:26:03,375 --> 01:26:05,375 I had interviewed on death row. 1685 01:26:05,458 --> 01:26:09,291 And by his own admission, he had a violent past. 1686 01:26:09,375 --> 01:26:12,500 His serial executions were but the latest manifestations 1687 01:26:12,583 --> 01:26:15,208 of his paranoid rage. 1688 01:26:15,291 --> 01:26:18,583 He had served time only for assault and battery, not for murder. 1689 01:26:18,667 --> 01:26:20,667 But that seemed more the luck of the draw 1690 01:26:20,750 --> 01:26:23,541 than a reflection of mental health. 1691 01:26:23,625 --> 01:26:26,083 By his 19th execution, 1692 01:26:26,166 --> 01:26:28,375 he had a lot of experience. 1693 01:26:28,458 --> 01:26:31,833 I suspect each press of the button further inured him, 1694 01:26:31,917 --> 01:26:35,958 making it easier and easier over time to do his job. 1695 01:26:37,083 --> 01:26:39,416 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, uh-huh. 1696 01:26:41,917 --> 01:26:44,792 Yeager: When he was really talking about himself 1697 01:26:44,875 --> 01:26:47,083 and really getting into his philosophy 1698 01:26:47,166 --> 01:26:49,875 on executions and he's just doing a job, 1699 01:26:50,583 --> 01:26:52,083 he told us that... 1700 01:26:54,833 --> 01:26:56,333 Dorothy: 1701 01:26:58,458 --> 01:26:59,792 Dorothy: 1702 01:27:06,541 --> 01:27:09,833 Yeager: He would blank out, and he would do a piece of artwork. 1703 01:27:09,917 --> 01:27:11,625 (indistinct chatter) 1704 01:27:11,708 --> 01:27:15,124 Dorothy: The pictures got more and more bizarre, 1705 01:27:15,208 --> 01:27:17,249 more and more psychotic, 1706 01:27:17,333 --> 01:27:19,999 and more and more violent. 1707 01:27:20,083 --> 01:27:21,875 Jones: 1708 01:27:21,958 --> 01:27:25,458 Yeager: There, you saw the real person who had 1709 01:27:25,541 --> 01:27:29,375 this facade that he was a cool guy 'cause he was doing this 1710 01:27:29,458 --> 01:27:32,917 terrifying work, which should upset anybody. 1711 01:27:32,999 --> 01:27:36,917 Although he was very cool about, you know, "Oh, no big deal." 1712 01:27:36,999 --> 01:27:40,416 His paintings showed his humanity. 1713 01:27:40,500 --> 01:27:42,958 You could see the upset. 1714 01:27:49,375 --> 01:27:50,541 Dorothy: Mm-hmm. 1715 01:28:03,583 --> 01:28:05,500 Dorothy: Yeah. 1716 01:28:15,041 --> 01:28:16,458 Dorothy: 1717 01:28:16,541 --> 01:28:18,750 It's puzzling. It's... 1718 01:28:20,208 --> 01:28:23,875 you know, you, you certainly wonder was-- 1719 01:28:23,958 --> 01:28:27,792 did he dissociate or, uh, 1720 01:28:27,875 --> 01:28:31,833 did he think killing is different from executing? 1721 01:28:34,958 --> 01:28:37,541 Dorothy: Your grandchild? How old is your grandchild? 1722 01:28:38,375 --> 01:28:39,333 Dorothy: 1723 01:28:41,208 --> 01:28:43,041 Dorothy: (laughs) He does? 1724 01:28:43,124 --> 01:28:46,208 ♪ ♪ 1725 01:28:52,583 --> 01:28:55,708 (birds chirping) 1726 01:29:01,667 --> 01:29:03,083 (grunts) 1727 01:29:05,750 --> 01:29:08,124 (coughing) There's mold on these things. 1728 01:29:11,917 --> 01:29:14,291 (clacking) 1729 01:29:19,917 --> 01:29:23,249 Oh for... God's sake. 1730 01:29:23,333 --> 01:29:24,541 Hey, Eric? 1731 01:29:24,625 --> 01:29:28,208 -Eric! Eric, guess what I found? -Eric: Yeah? 1732 01:29:28,291 --> 01:29:31,500 "1/23/89, tape 2." 1733 01:29:31,583 --> 01:29:32,999 (Eric laughs) 1734 01:29:33,083 --> 01:29:36,208 You know what that is? I wouldn't even put 1735 01:29:36,291 --> 01:29:38,291 Bundy's name on it 'cause I thought 1736 01:29:38,375 --> 01:29:40,667 in case anyone got hold of these, 1737 01:29:40,750 --> 01:29:42,625 I didn't want them to know what it was. 1738 01:29:42,708 --> 01:29:45,708 That's my last interview with him. 1739 01:29:45,792 --> 01:29:48,041 Take a look. Don't get DNA on it! 1740 01:29:48,124 --> 01:29:49,541 (laughs) 1741 01:29:49,625 --> 01:29:53,541 ♪ ♪ 1742 01:29:53,625 --> 01:29:56,458 Narrator: It is now 30 years since Theodore Bundy, 1743 01:29:56,541 --> 01:29:58,375 arguably the most notorious 1744 01:29:58,458 --> 01:30:01,124 American serial murderer of the 20th century, 1745 01:30:01,208 --> 01:30:02,833 was electrocuted. 1746 01:30:02,917 --> 01:30:05,041 Crowd (singing): ♪ Fry, fry! ♪ 1747 01:30:05,124 --> 01:30:06,792 ♪ Ted Bundy, goodbye ♪ 1748 01:30:06,875 --> 01:30:09,083 Narrator: For readers unfamiliar with this case, 1749 01:30:09,166 --> 01:30:10,667 Theodore Bundy was a young male 1750 01:30:10,750 --> 01:30:13,333 sexual predator who terrorized the United States 1751 01:30:13,416 --> 01:30:17,625 from coast to coast during the 1970s. 1752 01:30:18,958 --> 01:30:22,833 He committed over 30 homicides of young women, 1753 01:30:22,917 --> 01:30:24,583 decapitating some 1754 01:30:24,667 --> 01:30:27,166 and saving their skulls as trophies. 1755 01:30:28,833 --> 01:30:31,792 Attractive, articulate, and charismatic, 1756 01:30:31,875 --> 01:30:33,416 he convinced the court 1757 01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:36,249 to allow him to represent himself, 1758 01:30:36,333 --> 01:30:39,458 turning his trials more into performance pieces 1759 01:30:39,541 --> 01:30:42,083 than serious legal proceedings. 1760 01:30:42,166 --> 01:30:44,124 After numerous unsuccessful appeals, 1761 01:30:44,208 --> 01:30:47,166 Bundy was executed in Starke, Florida, 1762 01:30:47,249 --> 01:30:50,375 on January 24th, 1989. 1763 01:30:52,500 --> 01:30:54,083 (typing) 1764 01:30:54,166 --> 01:30:57,917 Why write about Bundy decades after his death? 1765 01:30:57,999 --> 01:31:00,750 Hasn't everything of importance already been said? 1766 01:31:00,833 --> 01:31:02,375 No. 1767 01:31:04,375 --> 01:31:06,583 The authors resurrect this case 1768 01:31:06,667 --> 01:31:09,291 to call into question the widely held belief 1769 01:31:09,375 --> 01:31:14,166 that Bundy had a normal childhood, and that he simply had 1770 01:31:14,249 --> 01:31:17,458 an innate predisposition to extreme violence. 1771 01:31:17,541 --> 01:31:20,458 That he was simply born evil. 1772 01:31:20,541 --> 01:31:23,625 Bundy himself perpetuated the fantasy 1773 01:31:23,708 --> 01:31:26,541 that he came from this perfectly normal childhood, 1774 01:31:26,625 --> 01:31:29,124 and so, he must be evil. 1775 01:31:29,208 --> 01:31:32,541 I grew up in a wonderful home with two... 1776 01:31:32,625 --> 01:31:34,249 dedicated and loving parents, 1777 01:31:34,333 --> 01:31:36,958 one of five brothers and sisters. 1778 01:31:37,041 --> 01:31:40,500 Yeager: That's fodder for us to say, now, wait a minute. 1779 01:31:40,583 --> 01:31:43,708 We know that people are not born evil. 1780 01:31:43,792 --> 01:31:46,208 That has to develop somehow. 1781 01:31:46,291 --> 01:31:49,166 I hope no one will try to take the easy way out 1782 01:31:49,249 --> 01:31:52,333 and to try to blame or otherwise accuse 1783 01:31:52,416 --> 01:31:55,875 my family of contributing to this because... 1784 01:31:55,958 --> 01:31:59,083 Gibney: So I'm interested in particular of why you, 1785 01:31:59,166 --> 01:32:02,208 you're so interested in him, even today. 1786 01:32:02,291 --> 01:32:04,667 Uh-huh. Well, uh, 1787 01:32:04,750 --> 01:32:07,750 first of all, 'cause I got it wrong. 1788 01:32:07,833 --> 01:32:10,833 ♪ ♪ 1789 01:32:10,917 --> 01:32:15,750 In '86, Bundy's attorneys asked, "Would you 1790 01:32:15,833 --> 01:32:19,375 work with the defense team?" Because they were appealing. 1791 01:32:19,458 --> 01:32:21,583 And I said sure. 1792 01:32:21,667 --> 01:32:24,208 We had our psychologist, 1793 01:32:24,291 --> 01:32:27,333 our neurologist, our neuropsychologist, 1794 01:32:27,416 --> 01:32:30,667 and did a computerized EEG. 1795 01:32:30,750 --> 01:32:34,708 We did not find any gross neurological problems, 1796 01:32:34,792 --> 01:32:37,792 but we did find some abnormalities 1797 01:32:37,875 --> 01:32:41,875 that are often seen in depressed people. 1798 01:32:41,958 --> 01:32:46,166 Bundy had already been evaluated by several other professionals. 1799 01:32:47,458 --> 01:32:49,541 They diagnosed psychopathy. 1800 01:32:49,625 --> 01:32:52,333 They said he was just a psychopath. 1801 01:32:54,999 --> 01:32:58,124 -Did you ever see the Dobson tapes? -Gibney: Yes. 1802 01:32:58,208 --> 01:32:59,333 You know? (laughs) 1803 01:32:59,416 --> 01:33:01,291 James Dobson: Ted, how did it happen? 1804 01:33:01,375 --> 01:33:04,917 Take me back. What are the antecedents 1805 01:33:04,999 --> 01:33:06,458 of the behavior? 1806 01:33:06,541 --> 01:33:08,750 The basic... 1807 01:33:08,833 --> 01:33:12,416 humanity and basic spirit that God gave me was intact, 1808 01:33:12,500 --> 01:33:15,875 but, unfortunately, it became overwhelmed at times 1809 01:33:15,958 --> 01:33:19,291 through the kind of fantasy life that was fueled... 1810 01:33:20,416 --> 01:33:24,083 largely, by pornography. 1811 01:33:24,166 --> 01:33:25,999 Do you realize how many 1812 01:33:26,083 --> 01:33:28,458 serial killers you would have out there 1813 01:33:28,541 --> 01:33:30,917 if pornography could do that? 1814 01:33:30,999 --> 01:33:33,041 It's so simple-minded. 1815 01:33:33,124 --> 01:33:36,375 I think it's clear that sexual sadists, like Ted Bundy, 1816 01:33:36,458 --> 01:33:38,249 are very much interested in pornography. 1817 01:33:38,333 --> 01:33:42,249 Research I've recently done with Roy Hazelwood of the FBI 1818 01:33:42,333 --> 01:33:45,750 indicated that more than 50% of sexually sadistic offenders, 1819 01:33:45,833 --> 01:33:48,541 like Bundy, had sizable pornography collections. 1820 01:33:48,625 --> 01:33:51,999 Would curbing pornography make our society any safer? 1821 01:33:52,083 --> 01:33:54,500 It would do more good than banning assault rifles would do. 1822 01:33:54,583 --> 01:33:56,999 Bryant Gumbel: What kinds of materials are, perhaps, 1823 01:33:57,083 --> 01:33:59,792 -more harmful? -Well, number one on my list, 1824 01:33:59,875 --> 01:34:03,249 as of 1986, was the covers of "Detective" magazines. 1825 01:34:03,333 --> 01:34:05,833 ♪ ♪ 1826 01:34:05,917 --> 01:34:08,875 Dorothy: Bundy's grandfather had a real collection 1827 01:34:08,958 --> 01:34:12,416 of pornography that he was exposed to very young, 1828 01:34:12,500 --> 01:34:14,083 pulp fiction, 1829 01:34:14,166 --> 01:34:16,625 sex and murder and stuff like that. 1830 01:34:16,708 --> 01:34:21,541 And he would fantasize about these sexual, murderous 1831 01:34:21,625 --> 01:34:23,124 kinds of things. 1832 01:34:23,208 --> 01:34:27,583 And he said it would build and build, 1833 01:34:27,667 --> 01:34:30,875 and then, it had to be released. 1834 01:34:32,667 --> 01:34:35,124 Ted Bundy: Those of us who have been 1835 01:34:35,208 --> 01:34:40,208 so much influenced by pornographic violence 1836 01:34:40,291 --> 01:34:42,708 are not some kind of inherent monsters. 1837 01:34:42,792 --> 01:34:45,750 We are your sons and we are your husbands. 1838 01:34:45,833 --> 01:34:48,166 We grew up in regular families, 1839 01:34:48,249 --> 01:34:49,708 and pornography can reach out 1840 01:34:49,792 --> 01:34:53,083 and snatch a kid out of any house today. 1841 01:34:53,166 --> 01:34:57,166 Dorothy: Clearly, it had some influence on him, 1842 01:34:57,249 --> 01:34:59,917 but I think there were other explanations. 1843 01:34:59,999 --> 01:35:01,541 ♪ ♪ 1844 01:35:01,625 --> 01:35:04,500 And so, I interviewed family members. 1845 01:35:04,583 --> 01:35:07,875 His aunts, an uncle, his mother. 1846 01:35:09,792 --> 01:35:12,458 I learned that his grandmother suffered 1847 01:35:12,541 --> 01:35:14,708 from a depressive disorder. 1848 01:35:14,792 --> 01:35:17,208 She was psychiatrically hospitalized 1849 01:35:17,291 --> 01:35:20,333 and treated with electroconvulsive therapy. 1850 01:35:20,416 --> 01:35:22,041 (electricity buzzing) 1851 01:35:22,124 --> 01:35:25,958 I was talking to Aunt Julia, and I said, 1852 01:35:26,041 --> 01:35:29,124 "What was he like as a little boy?" 1853 01:35:29,208 --> 01:35:32,708 And she said, "Well, when he was 3 years old, 1854 01:35:32,792 --> 01:35:35,875 "he used to come up with kitchen knives, 1855 01:35:35,958 --> 01:35:38,208 "and he'd stand 1856 01:35:38,291 --> 01:35:40,291 at the door, then he'd come in." 1857 01:35:40,375 --> 01:35:43,249 He picked up the blanket 1858 01:35:43,333 --> 01:35:47,249 and put the knives around her on the bed. 1859 01:35:47,333 --> 01:35:50,249 And he had that glint in his eye. 1860 01:35:52,041 --> 01:35:55,667 This was the first, the very, very first time 1861 01:35:55,750 --> 01:36:00,249 that we realized how aberrant he had been. 1862 01:36:00,333 --> 01:36:02,166 I was so stunned. 1863 01:36:03,625 --> 01:36:05,249 Reporter 1: Convicted murderer Theodore Bundy 1864 01:36:05,333 --> 01:36:08,291 is taking new steps to avoid Florida's electric chair. 1865 01:36:08,375 --> 01:36:10,249 Reporter 2: Armed guards brought Bundy 1866 01:36:10,333 --> 01:36:12,375 to the Orlando Federal Building for a hearing 1867 01:36:12,458 --> 01:36:14,541 to determine his mental competency. 1868 01:36:14,625 --> 01:36:16,750 ♪ ♪ 1869 01:36:16,833 --> 01:36:20,541 Dorothy: When I testified, I had enough data 1870 01:36:20,625 --> 01:36:23,833 to make a diagnosis of a bipolar disorder. 1871 01:36:23,917 --> 01:36:26,333 He had episodes of highs where he could keep 1872 01:36:26,416 --> 01:36:29,792 going and going and going and he was grandiose, 1873 01:36:29,875 --> 01:36:32,083 but these were interspersed with periods 1874 01:36:32,166 --> 01:36:34,083 of terrible depression, 1875 01:36:34,166 --> 01:36:35,917 when he'd drop out of school, 1876 01:36:35,999 --> 01:36:40,083 he would weep, he would go off by himself. 1877 01:36:40,166 --> 01:36:43,083 On the stand, I said he was not competent 1878 01:36:43,166 --> 01:36:44,875 either to represent himself, 1879 01:36:44,958 --> 01:36:46,958 or, really, to go to trial. 1880 01:36:47,041 --> 01:36:50,291 I'm not going through this and you knew that, Your Honor. 1881 01:36:50,375 --> 01:36:53,833 Dorothy: But the judge ruled that he was competent enough, 1882 01:36:53,917 --> 01:36:56,999 and he upheld the death sentence. 1883 01:36:57,083 --> 01:36:58,208 (static) 1884 01:36:58,291 --> 01:37:01,249 Reporter: Salvador Dali was 84. 1885 01:37:01,333 --> 01:37:03,124 In Florida, a convicted serial killer 1886 01:37:03,208 --> 01:37:06,124 is continuing his string of 11th hour confessions. 1887 01:37:06,208 --> 01:37:09,166 As NBC's Ed Ravel reports, Ted Bundy is apparently trying 1888 01:37:09,249 --> 01:37:12,958 to delay his execution scheduled for the electric chair tomorrow. 1889 01:37:13,041 --> 01:37:16,124 Dorothy: A few years after I first saw him, 1890 01:37:16,208 --> 01:37:19,166 I got a call from his lawyer, 1891 01:37:19,249 --> 01:37:22,917 saying he wanted to meet with me before he was executed. 1892 01:37:22,999 --> 01:37:25,500 So I did go. 1893 01:37:25,583 --> 01:37:28,166 The attorney, she said, 1894 01:37:28,249 --> 01:37:31,083 "Ted wants to know if you can 1895 01:37:31,166 --> 01:37:35,333 say that he is incompetent to be executed." 1896 01:37:35,416 --> 01:37:38,917 And I said, "I would be laughed out of town. 1897 01:37:38,999 --> 01:37:40,833 I just can't do that." And I said, 1898 01:37:40,917 --> 01:37:43,375 "And all the work that we've done 1899 01:37:43,458 --> 01:37:46,541 "to understand people who 1900 01:37:46,625 --> 01:37:50,875 "do these kinds of things will not be considered valid 1901 01:37:50,958 --> 01:37:54,500 if I say something as ridiculous as that." 1902 01:37:54,583 --> 01:37:56,750 Gibney: But he clearly knew he was going to be executed. 1903 01:37:56,833 --> 01:37:58,583 -Yes. -He knew what an execution meant. 1904 01:37:58,667 --> 01:38:00,583 That's right, and he knew what he had done. 1905 01:38:00,667 --> 01:38:02,041 ♪ ♪ 1906 01:38:02,124 --> 01:38:04,208 And I said, "Besides, the warden 1907 01:38:04,291 --> 01:38:06,708 "has three other psychiatrists out there, 1908 01:38:06,792 --> 01:38:09,958 waiting to refute this." 1909 01:38:10,041 --> 01:38:11,625 Gibney: What was his reaction? 1910 01:38:11,708 --> 01:38:14,625 He said he, he could understand that. 1911 01:38:15,625 --> 01:38:17,833 Dorothy (on tape): Testing. 1912 01:38:17,917 --> 01:38:21,375 Dorothy: He gave me permission to tape the conversation. 1913 01:38:21,458 --> 01:38:24,124 Dorothy (on tape): 1914 01:38:25,708 --> 01:38:28,750 Dorothy: I asked him why did he ask to see me. 1915 01:38:29,375 --> 01:38:30,875 And he said... 1916 01:38:30,958 --> 01:38:33,917 Bundy (on tape): 1917 01:38:37,833 --> 01:38:43,625 I was not fascinated by his perversions. 1918 01:38:43,708 --> 01:38:49,249 I was far more interested in how he got the way he was. 1919 01:38:49,333 --> 01:38:52,416 Narrator: Whatever his motives for asking me to come to Starke 1920 01:38:52,500 --> 01:38:53,917 and mine for coming, 1921 01:38:53,999 --> 01:38:55,917 our four and a half hours together 1922 01:38:55,999 --> 01:38:59,500 on the day before his execution were riveting. 1923 01:38:59,583 --> 01:39:01,708 Dorothy (on tape): 1924 01:39:09,333 --> 01:39:11,333 Bundy (on tape): 1925 01:39:24,041 --> 01:39:26,458 Bundy (on tape): 1926 01:39:26,541 --> 01:39:27,958 (door creaking) 1927 01:39:28,041 --> 01:39:29,958 Narrator: When the tape recorder was off, 1928 01:39:30,041 --> 01:39:32,083 Bundy told me that he had had 1929 01:39:32,166 --> 01:39:35,583 a sexual encounter with one of his sisters. 1930 01:39:35,667 --> 01:39:37,917 Later, his mother told me 1931 01:39:37,999 --> 01:39:40,041 that Bundy had told his sister 1932 01:39:40,124 --> 01:39:41,541 that she should be careful 1933 01:39:41,625 --> 01:39:43,333 because there was someone out in the world 1934 01:39:43,416 --> 01:39:46,750 who was killing women who looked just like her. 1935 01:39:47,958 --> 01:39:49,667 Bit by bit, I was beginning 1936 01:39:49,750 --> 01:39:53,249 to see a very different story in Bundy's family life. 1937 01:39:53,333 --> 01:39:56,875 One that would upend the myth of pure evil. 1938 01:39:59,375 --> 01:40:02,541 (horn blaring, train roaring) 1939 01:40:04,416 --> 01:40:07,416 ♪ ♪ 1940 01:40:14,083 --> 01:40:16,750 (rumbling) 1941 01:40:22,750 --> 01:40:24,208 (doorbell rings) 1942 01:40:24,291 --> 01:40:26,999 (door opens) 1943 01:40:27,083 --> 01:40:28,458 -Dr. Lewis, how are you? -Hello! 1944 01:40:28,541 --> 01:40:30,917 Dorothy: The last interview I did tape, 1945 01:40:30,999 --> 01:40:34,500 and there was a point in that interview 1946 01:40:34,583 --> 01:40:37,500 when he said, "I want you to turn the tape off." Only once. 1947 01:40:37,583 --> 01:40:38,999 And that was when he talked about 1948 01:40:39,083 --> 01:40:40,500 his relationship with his sister. 1949 01:40:40,583 --> 01:40:42,583 I didn't talk to him about his sisters. 1950 01:40:42,667 --> 01:40:44,750 I was basically talking about crimes with him. 1951 01:40:44,833 --> 01:40:46,833 Really? Did you-- But even earlier on, 1952 01:40:46,917 --> 01:40:49,792 -he didn't tell you that he had-- -No, I didn't... 1953 01:40:49,875 --> 01:40:52,375 He was always protective with his family. I mean, 1954 01:40:52,458 --> 01:40:55,583 he would tell me things that I wouldn't even ask him about. 1955 01:40:55,667 --> 01:40:58,041 Dorothy: Bill Hagmaier, he was the major 1956 01:40:58,124 --> 01:41:00,458 FBI agent on the case. 1957 01:41:00,541 --> 01:41:04,083 He had spent a lot of time with Bundy, 1958 01:41:04,166 --> 01:41:06,083 much more time than I did. 1959 01:41:06,166 --> 01:41:08,792 So, that's why I wanted to see him. 1960 01:41:09,625 --> 01:41:13,500 Each of us was close to Bundy 1961 01:41:13,583 --> 01:41:16,333 in a different kind of capacity. 1962 01:41:16,416 --> 01:41:20,750 We were the ones that Bundy trusted. 1963 01:41:20,833 --> 01:41:23,583 ♪ ♪ 1964 01:41:23,667 --> 01:41:27,166 Bill Hagmaier: I was assigned to the Behavioral Science Unit, 1965 01:41:27,249 --> 01:41:29,667 and they had already started to do 1966 01:41:29,750 --> 01:41:31,917 some research on murderers, 1967 01:41:31,999 --> 01:41:34,333 and Bundy's name came up. 1968 01:41:34,416 --> 01:41:36,999 So I wrote him a letter, just general letter, 1969 01:41:37,083 --> 01:41:39,875 and Ted invited me to visit him. 1970 01:41:39,958 --> 01:41:41,541 Gibney: Were you able to get Bundy to talk much 1971 01:41:41,625 --> 01:41:44,249 about his family and his childhood? 1972 01:41:44,333 --> 01:41:47,708 Hagmaier: We talked about it quite a bit. 1973 01:41:47,792 --> 01:41:49,917 He wasn't telling the truth on all this, I know. 1974 01:41:49,999 --> 01:41:52,875 Everything was cotton candy for him and his family. 1975 01:41:52,958 --> 01:41:55,958 He didn't want to say anything bad about his family at all. 1976 01:41:56,041 --> 01:41:57,208 Or his mother. 1977 01:41:58,500 --> 01:42:00,750 Dorothy: Bundy's mother was impregnated 1978 01:42:00,833 --> 01:42:03,958 by someone, we're not sure who it is. 1979 01:42:04,041 --> 01:42:06,375 I asked her something about how she felt 1980 01:42:06,458 --> 01:42:08,625 when she knew she was pregnant. 1981 01:42:08,708 --> 01:42:11,875 And I don't know if I actually said abortion 1982 01:42:11,958 --> 01:42:15,792 or if she brought it up, but she said, "He," 1983 01:42:15,875 --> 01:42:17,750 now meaning the father, 1984 01:42:17,833 --> 01:42:20,291 "He took me to a doctor. 1985 01:42:20,375 --> 01:42:24,291 "The doctor gave me pills for an abortion, 1986 01:42:24,375 --> 01:42:25,917 but nothing happened." 1987 01:42:25,999 --> 01:42:29,625 -Gibney: So it was an attempted abortion that didn't succeed? -Yeah, yeah. 1988 01:42:29,708 --> 01:42:32,333 Which is not supposed to be so good for the baby. 1989 01:42:34,875 --> 01:42:36,541 Her father made arrangements 1990 01:42:36,625 --> 01:42:40,792 for her to go up to a home for unwed mothers, 1991 01:42:40,875 --> 01:42:42,958 called the Lund Home. 1992 01:42:43,041 --> 01:42:45,416 She was at the Lund Home for two months, 1993 01:42:45,500 --> 01:42:48,041 and then gave birth to him. 1994 01:42:48,124 --> 01:42:51,583 She wouldn't allow her father to come up at all 1995 01:42:51,667 --> 01:42:54,999 until after the baby was born, 1996 01:42:55,083 --> 01:42:57,667 and she signed papers 1997 01:42:57,750 --> 01:43:01,124 saying he could be put up for adoption. 1998 01:43:01,208 --> 01:43:03,999 And then, her father came up 1999 01:43:04,083 --> 01:43:07,249 and brought her home, back to Philadelphia. 2000 01:43:07,333 --> 01:43:10,375 However, for two months, he kept saying, 2001 01:43:10,458 --> 01:43:13,500 "We have to get the baby back. We want the baby back." 2002 01:43:13,583 --> 01:43:16,416 And finally, she gave in. 2003 01:43:16,500 --> 01:43:19,792 She went and picked the baby up, brought the baby home, 2004 01:43:19,875 --> 01:43:22,667 and then her father insisted 2005 01:43:22,750 --> 01:43:25,708 that he be known as the baby's father, 2006 01:43:25,792 --> 01:43:28,375 and that the baby call him Father, 2007 01:43:28,458 --> 01:43:31,667 and that Louise be known as his sister. 2008 01:43:31,750 --> 01:43:34,124 ♪ ♪ 2009 01:43:35,416 --> 01:43:37,541 He was an incredibly violent man, 2010 01:43:37,625 --> 01:43:39,917 and, apparently, a very, very disturbed man, 2011 01:43:39,999 --> 01:43:44,166 according to interviews that I've had with relatives. 2012 01:43:44,249 --> 01:43:46,416 Dorothy (on tape): 2013 01:43:50,041 --> 01:43:52,667 Bundy (on tape): 2014 01:43:58,500 --> 01:44:00,124 (traffic noise) 2015 01:44:00,208 --> 01:44:02,124 Dorothy: The whole family 2016 01:44:02,208 --> 01:44:04,875 knows the story that in the car 2017 01:44:04,958 --> 01:44:07,541 while the grandfather was driving, 2018 01:44:07,625 --> 01:44:09,541 one of his younger brothers, I believe, 2019 01:44:09,625 --> 01:44:15,333 said, "Oh! Tell us about Ted's real father." 2020 01:44:15,416 --> 01:44:16,750 And, apparently, 2021 01:44:16,833 --> 01:44:20,999 the grandfather was out of his mind, filled with rage. 2022 01:44:22,708 --> 01:44:25,792 He had total control over Bundy's mother. 2023 01:44:25,875 --> 01:44:30,291 He had total control over how this child was gonna be raised, 2024 01:44:30,375 --> 01:44:33,583 and, um, and the family told Dorothy that 2025 01:44:33,667 --> 01:44:36,999 they had to help the mother and the child, Ted, 2026 01:44:37,083 --> 01:44:39,792 escape from the father and go cross-country 2027 01:44:39,875 --> 01:44:42,541 to get away from him. 2028 01:44:42,625 --> 01:44:44,708 Dorothy: Things were horrendous for Bundy 2029 01:44:44,792 --> 01:44:46,416 from conception onward. 2030 01:44:46,500 --> 01:44:49,625 ♪ ♪ 2031 01:44:55,667 --> 01:44:57,583 (birds chirping) 2032 01:44:57,667 --> 01:44:59,875 (papers rustling) 2033 01:45:01,917 --> 01:45:05,958 Several years after Bundy was executed, 2034 01:45:06,041 --> 01:45:08,708 I got a phone call from his wife, and-- 2035 01:45:08,792 --> 01:45:12,041 who I had never spoken to, never heard from before, 2036 01:45:12,124 --> 01:45:15,708 and I think I couldn't even contact her while he was alive. 2037 01:45:15,792 --> 01:45:20,124 And she said a friend of hers was coming to New York. 2038 01:45:20,208 --> 01:45:24,792 She was going to give her a packet of love letters 2039 01:45:24,875 --> 01:45:28,375 that Bundy had written to her. 2040 01:45:29,708 --> 01:45:34,625 The handwriting was all very much alike. 2041 01:45:34,708 --> 01:45:37,416 But the signatures were different. 2042 01:45:38,999 --> 01:45:44,625 See look. This would be a-- an ordinary thing. 2043 01:45:44,708 --> 01:45:47,958 An ordinary writing, yeah. 2044 01:45:48,041 --> 01:45:50,416 But, uh, here, look at the difference. 2045 01:45:50,500 --> 01:45:52,708 That is so aberrant 2046 01:45:52,792 --> 01:45:55,667 and out of control and, uh, different. 2047 01:45:55,750 --> 01:46:00,375 He often signed different names to his letters, 2048 01:46:00,458 --> 01:46:04,875 but the most important one is that some of them 2049 01:46:04,958 --> 01:46:06,291 are signed "Sam." 2050 01:46:06,375 --> 01:46:08,999 Oh look, here's Sam. 2051 01:46:09,083 --> 01:46:11,792 Here's Sam. 2052 01:46:11,875 --> 01:46:13,708 Here's another Sam. 2053 01:46:13,792 --> 01:46:16,416 No, it's a Sambo. It's a version of Sam. 2054 01:46:16,500 --> 01:46:17,917 Sambo. 2055 01:46:19,166 --> 01:46:21,166 It turns out that 2056 01:46:21,249 --> 01:46:24,583 Sam was the name of his grandfather. 2057 01:46:26,458 --> 01:46:29,792 People who are multiples, or who have DID, 2058 01:46:29,875 --> 01:46:33,333 it's very common for them to have an alter 2059 01:46:33,416 --> 01:46:35,667 who is the abuser. 2060 01:46:35,750 --> 01:46:41,416 When I saw that, I thought, how did I so miss this? 2061 01:46:41,500 --> 01:46:44,416 We realized that Sam was the grandfather, 2062 01:46:44,500 --> 01:46:47,708 and that he had taken on this persona... 2063 01:46:47,792 --> 01:46:50,500 With all the work that we have been doing, 2064 01:46:50,583 --> 01:46:53,708 there are numerous data that show 2065 01:46:53,792 --> 01:46:56,208 he is somewhere on the continuum 2066 01:46:56,291 --> 01:46:59,500 of Dissociative Identity Disorder. 2067 01:47:00,958 --> 01:47:02,541 When he was going to be sentenced, 2068 01:47:02,625 --> 01:47:05,583 -he said to the judge... -Bundy: I'm not asking for mercy, 2069 01:47:05,667 --> 01:47:07,333 for I find it somewhat absurd 2070 01:47:07,416 --> 01:47:10,750 to ask for mercy for something I did not do. 2071 01:47:10,833 --> 01:47:14,708 Dorothy: And there was one time after he had told me 2072 01:47:14,792 --> 01:47:16,833 about many of the murders. 2073 01:47:16,917 --> 01:47:18,958 He came in and he sat down, 2074 01:47:19,041 --> 01:47:21,166 and his demeanor was different. 2075 01:47:21,249 --> 01:47:25,083 And he said, "The person sitting before you 2076 01:47:25,166 --> 01:47:28,750 never killed anyone." 2077 01:47:28,833 --> 01:47:31,041 I don't think that he is kidding 2078 01:47:31,124 --> 01:47:33,583 or pretending that he's innocent. 2079 01:47:33,667 --> 01:47:36,333 I think that there is a Bundy state 2080 01:47:36,416 --> 01:47:39,041 where he did not do any of those murders. 2081 01:47:39,124 --> 01:47:40,291 ♪ ♪ 2082 01:47:40,375 --> 01:47:45,249 In fact, he referred to the person who killed, 2083 01:47:45,333 --> 01:47:47,124 he called that The Entity. 2084 01:47:47,208 --> 01:47:49,375 Bundy (on tape): 2085 01:48:28,208 --> 01:48:30,208 (indistinct tape chatter) 2086 01:48:30,291 --> 01:48:32,708 Dorothy: I had a clue then 2087 01:48:32,792 --> 01:48:36,333 that he might suffer from a dissociative disorder, 2088 01:48:36,416 --> 01:48:38,416 but then when I saw the writing, 2089 01:48:38,500 --> 01:48:41,500 and I saw that he did, at times, 2090 01:48:41,583 --> 01:48:44,333 seem to become his grandfather, 2091 01:48:44,416 --> 01:48:47,667 who was a very violent kind of person, 2092 01:48:47,750 --> 01:48:49,416 that's when I got interested. 2093 01:48:50,583 --> 01:48:52,333 So yeah, uh... 2094 01:48:52,416 --> 01:48:55,667 I'm not the first to have 2095 01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:59,583 wondered whether his grandfather was indeed his father. 2096 01:48:59,667 --> 01:49:02,041 ♪ ♪ 2097 01:49:02,124 --> 01:49:04,333 May I ask you a question? 2098 01:49:04,416 --> 01:49:07,750 There are a lot of reasons that I think this would-- 2099 01:49:07,833 --> 01:49:10,083 and you've heard this also before. 2100 01:49:10,166 --> 01:49:13,875 Other people who have thought that-- 2101 01:49:13,958 --> 01:49:16,875 I've said he's his own father, but he isn't. 2102 01:49:16,958 --> 01:49:19,792 I-I think the grandfather may have... 2103 01:49:21,667 --> 01:49:23,208 Hagmaier: I-I don't know. 2104 01:49:23,291 --> 01:49:25,667 I know that was one of the first things that Louise said to me 2105 01:49:25,750 --> 01:49:28,208 when she met me. She just said, "I just want you to know 2106 01:49:28,291 --> 01:49:31,208 right now that my father is not his father." 2107 01:49:31,291 --> 01:49:34,500 -(laughing) -I didn't-- I didn't even ask her the question. 2108 01:49:34,583 --> 01:49:36,958 That is amazing 'cause I did not... 2109 01:49:37,041 --> 01:49:38,416 (voice fading) 2110 01:49:38,500 --> 01:49:40,792 A number of people have suspected 2111 01:49:40,875 --> 01:49:43,583 that there was incest, but nobody has ever come out 2112 01:49:43,667 --> 01:49:45,708 and said that there is incest in the family. 2113 01:49:45,792 --> 01:49:47,917 If we were to get blood, 2114 01:49:48,917 --> 01:49:51,625 we could look at the genes 2115 01:49:51,708 --> 01:49:55,083 in the blood sample, the DNA. 2116 01:49:55,166 --> 01:49:58,999 We all have a certain number of identical matching genes. 2117 01:50:00,083 --> 01:50:03,416 But, if you have more than 2118 01:50:03,500 --> 01:50:07,083 a certain number of identical genes, 2119 01:50:07,166 --> 01:50:09,458 it is an indication of incest 2120 01:50:09,541 --> 01:50:12,708 because you have too much from the same family. 2121 01:50:12,792 --> 01:50:14,375 ♪ ♪ 2122 01:50:14,458 --> 01:50:16,917 Basically, what you're getting to, does incest 2123 01:50:16,999 --> 01:50:19,792 influence serial killer development? 2124 01:50:19,875 --> 01:50:23,291 (stammers): I doubt that the FBI's lab 2125 01:50:23,375 --> 01:50:26,333 is going to give out that for that purpose. 2126 01:50:26,416 --> 01:50:29,625 Not saying it wouldn't help us understand behavior 2127 01:50:29,708 --> 01:50:33,458 in people with it, but it's just... 2128 01:50:33,541 --> 01:50:37,291 Gibney: So were you able to get DNA from the FBI? 2129 01:50:37,375 --> 01:50:40,708 Dorothy: Oh no. The FBI isn't generous that way. 2130 01:50:42,124 --> 01:50:44,541 But I was able to get a sample 2131 01:50:44,625 --> 01:50:47,958 elsewhere, and according to that report, 2132 01:50:48,041 --> 01:50:50,625 his grandfather was not his father. 2133 01:50:50,708 --> 01:50:53,458 He was not the product of incest. 2134 01:50:53,541 --> 01:50:55,792 Gibney: Was there some actual disappointment when you-- 2135 01:50:55,875 --> 01:50:59,708 -Dorothy: Oh yes. Oh, oh yes. -Gibney: And why would it be 2136 01:50:59,792 --> 01:51:02,792 so important to know whether or not Bundy's grandfather 2137 01:51:02,875 --> 01:51:04,458 was also his father? 2138 01:51:04,541 --> 01:51:07,124 I don't think genetically it matters. 2139 01:51:07,208 --> 01:51:09,416 That I really don't believe. 2140 01:51:09,500 --> 01:51:11,249 Uh, you know, it might. 2141 01:51:11,333 --> 01:51:14,333 It may be that he had more, uh, 2142 01:51:14,416 --> 01:51:17,792 a greater likelihood of having a bipolar disorder, 2143 01:51:17,875 --> 01:51:20,833 but, uh, I think that-- 2144 01:51:20,917 --> 01:51:22,917 I think he was treated 2145 01:51:22,999 --> 01:51:25,917 throughout his lifetime as though 2146 01:51:25,999 --> 01:51:28,541 he were some kind of child that 2147 01:51:28,625 --> 01:51:31,416 you don't want to have around. 2148 01:51:31,500 --> 01:51:33,291 ♪ ♪ 2149 01:51:33,375 --> 01:51:36,208 His mother, when I spoke with her, 2150 01:51:36,291 --> 01:51:39,583 she said, "I can't wait till it's all over." 2151 01:51:41,958 --> 01:51:44,249 -Gibney: You mean the execution? -Yeah. 2152 01:51:44,333 --> 01:51:47,833 I-I find it hard to interpret it any other way. 2153 01:51:47,917 --> 01:51:51,458 Yeah. But can you imagine? "I can't wait till it's all over." 2154 01:51:51,541 --> 01:51:52,917 Uh... 2155 01:51:54,625 --> 01:51:56,708 Reporter: There was the atmosphere of a public hanging as 2156 01:51:56,792 --> 01:51:59,667 hundreds of singing, chanting death penalty supporters 2157 01:51:59,750 --> 01:52:01,291 gathered at the Florida State Prison, 2158 01:52:01,375 --> 01:52:03,667 demanding the execution of serial killer 2159 01:52:03,750 --> 01:52:05,416 Ted Bundy be carried out. 2160 01:52:05,500 --> 01:52:07,958 And when the official witnesses came out of the prison, 2161 01:52:08,041 --> 01:52:09,625 signaling the death of Bundy, 2162 01:52:09,708 --> 01:52:13,500 -there were cheers. -(crowd cheering) 2163 01:52:13,583 --> 01:52:16,667 (rumbling) 2164 01:52:19,750 --> 01:52:21,875 Dorothy: You know, it's taken me 30 years 2165 01:52:21,958 --> 01:52:23,458 to get to this point, 2166 01:52:23,541 --> 01:52:26,875 but we could've learned a whole lot more from him. 2167 01:52:26,958 --> 01:52:31,708 If he were not killed, we could've learned a lot about 2168 01:52:31,792 --> 01:52:35,208 serial murderers, but, uh... 2169 01:52:35,291 --> 01:52:37,999 they killed him. They, uh... 2170 01:52:38,917 --> 01:52:41,999 ♪ ♪ 2171 01:52:54,166 --> 01:52:58,041 (wind blowing) 2172 01:52:58,124 --> 01:52:59,583 Female Reporter (on TV): And we have breaking news today 2173 01:52:59,667 --> 01:53:01,249 from the Justice Department. 2174 01:53:01,333 --> 01:53:04,249 A new directive from Attorney General Bill Barr to reinstate 2175 01:53:04,333 --> 01:53:06,875 executions of federal death penalty prisoners 2176 01:53:06,958 --> 01:53:08,917 for the first time in nearly two decades. 2177 01:53:08,999 --> 01:53:12,083 But Attorney General Barr says it's time to restore 2178 01:53:12,166 --> 01:53:14,625 the death penalty for the sake of victims 2179 01:53:14,708 --> 01:53:16,667 and their families. He points out that 2180 01:53:16,750 --> 01:53:19,667 under administrations of both parties, 2181 01:53:19,750 --> 01:53:21,958 attorneys general have approved seeking... 2182 01:53:22,041 --> 01:53:25,625 Dorothy: When I heard that, I thought that all of 2183 01:53:25,708 --> 01:53:29,124 the advances that we had made in terms of 2184 01:53:29,208 --> 01:53:33,708 being humane, uh, were lost. 2185 01:53:33,792 --> 01:53:35,458 ♪ ♪ 2186 01:53:35,541 --> 01:53:38,667 Barr, he puzzles me. 2187 01:53:38,750 --> 01:53:40,500 These five people. If indeed, 2188 01:53:40,583 --> 01:53:43,416 they've done the most grotesque things, 2189 01:53:43,500 --> 01:53:46,999 we know that the most disturbed, the most psychotic, 2190 01:53:47,083 --> 01:53:50,333 or the most brain-damaged killers, 2191 01:53:50,416 --> 01:53:53,917 do the most bizarre, grotesque, horrendous kinds of things. 2192 01:53:53,999 --> 01:53:55,958 So he was picking 2193 01:53:56,041 --> 01:54:00,917 the sickest of the sick to execute. 2194 01:54:03,625 --> 01:54:07,541 You know, I'm not sure that we've come as far as we think we have. 2195 01:54:09,083 --> 01:54:12,208 It feels as if all the work 2196 01:54:12,291 --> 01:54:15,667 that I had done, that Dick Burr had done, 2197 01:54:15,750 --> 01:54:18,333 that, for the moment, it had been-- 2198 01:54:18,416 --> 01:54:20,875 It was like flushed down the toilet. 2199 01:54:20,958 --> 01:54:23,291 (mob chattering) 2200 01:54:23,375 --> 01:54:26,708 As if we'd gone back to like the Middle Ages. 2201 01:54:29,249 --> 01:54:31,875 (chatter continues) 2202 01:54:31,958 --> 01:54:34,583 ♪ ♪ 2203 01:54:34,667 --> 01:54:37,583 I remember one time, someone asked me, 2204 01:54:37,667 --> 01:54:39,833 "When you see in a movie 2205 01:54:39,917 --> 01:54:42,208 "or read about a witch being burned, 2206 01:54:42,291 --> 01:54:45,667 are you watching it, or are you the witch?" 2207 01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:48,917 (inaudible) 2208 01:54:48,999 --> 01:54:51,875 I'm always the witch. 2209 01:54:51,958 --> 01:54:54,667 -I think, what a horrible, horrible thing. -(flames roar) 2210 01:54:54,750 --> 01:54:58,208 And picture the flames coming up around me, 2211 01:54:58,291 --> 01:55:02,166 and wondering how someone could do that to someone else. 2212 01:55:03,458 --> 01:55:06,166 It appalled me and it fascinated me. 2213 01:55:11,458 --> 01:55:16,458 It reminds me of taking a tour of death row. 2214 01:55:16,541 --> 01:55:20,917 First, it was the area where the visitors watch. 2215 01:55:20,999 --> 01:55:23,375 And then, they took us around 2216 01:55:23,458 --> 01:55:26,458 to go right into the execution room. 2217 01:55:26,541 --> 01:55:30,291 This wooden chair with leather belts. 2218 01:55:31,917 --> 01:55:34,375 I did picture myself there. 2219 01:55:34,458 --> 01:55:37,541 ♪ ♪ 2220 01:55:39,500 --> 01:55:41,708 Narrator: Ted Bundy, Johnny Garrett, 2221 01:55:41,792 --> 01:55:45,041 Marie Moore, Jonathan, me. 2222 01:55:45,124 --> 01:55:47,416 Could any of us become a murderer? 2223 01:55:47,500 --> 01:55:50,750 Could anyone in the world become a murderer? 2224 01:55:50,833 --> 01:55:52,416 I think so. 2225 01:55:52,500 --> 01:55:57,291 Murderers are made, not born. 2226 01:55:57,375 --> 01:56:00,208 The more we understand about the genesis of violence, 2227 01:56:00,291 --> 01:56:04,083 the harder it is to draw a line between guilt and innocence, 2228 01:56:04,166 --> 01:56:06,041 sanity and insanity. 2229 01:56:07,041 --> 01:56:08,833 (click, electricity zapping) 2230 01:56:08,917 --> 01:56:10,541 Dorothy: As human beings, we struggle to cope 2231 01:56:10,625 --> 01:56:12,124 with the need for protection, 2232 01:56:12,208 --> 01:56:13,708 the desire for revenge, 2233 01:56:13,792 --> 01:56:15,875 and decency and morality. 2234 01:56:15,958 --> 01:56:19,124 But to understand sometimes means to forgive, 2235 01:56:19,208 --> 01:56:23,208 and these days, people aren't in a very forgiving mood. 2236 01:56:23,291 --> 01:56:25,083 Maybe Ted Bundy was right. 2237 01:56:25,166 --> 01:56:28,792 We are all far more curious about what the murderer did, 2238 01:56:28,875 --> 01:56:30,458 the gory details of the crime, 2239 01:56:30,541 --> 01:56:32,999 than about why they did it. 2240 01:56:33,083 --> 01:56:35,792 It's the act of murder that fascinates us 2241 01:56:35,875 --> 01:56:38,458 and tickles our own limbic systems. 2242 01:56:38,541 --> 01:56:41,041 No wonder people fight for seats at executions. 2243 01:56:41,124 --> 01:56:42,999 (fireworks blasting) 2244 01:56:43,083 --> 01:56:46,208 Is that, at least in part, why I do the work I do? 2245 01:56:46,291 --> 01:56:48,583 -(projector clicking) -Maybe. 2246 01:56:48,667 --> 01:56:50,875 I wouldn't be surprised. 2247 01:56:53,375 --> 01:56:55,291 (projector stops) 2248 01:56:56,708 --> 01:56:59,792 ♪ ♪ 2249 01:57:25,999 --> 01:57:29,124 ♪ ♪