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Toni:
She is a friend of my mind.
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00:00:25,997 --> 00:00:27,598
She gather me, man.
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The pieces I am...
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she gather them...
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and give them back to me
in all the right order.
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It's good, you know...
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when you've got a woman
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who is a friend of your mind.
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Toni: My grandfather
bragged all the time
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that he had read the Bible, through
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five times,
from cover to cover.
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I thought, why does he keep
reading that book?
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Then I realized
there weren't any other books.
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And it was illegal
in his life...
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to read. And it was illegal
for white people to teach...
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00:02:26,517 --> 00:02:27,719
black kids to read.
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So,
it was a revolutionary thing.
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And that sense
of it being confrontational...
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permeated our house, although
I didn't understand why,
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so early. Later on I did.
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My sister taught me to read
when I was three.
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And we used to get down
on our knees on the sidewalk...
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with a pebble...
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and write...
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cat, dog, I hate you.
You know...
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or I hat you
because we didn't know the e.
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One day we noticed
another word down the street
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about half a block away
and we decided to write it.
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So we got together,
expanding our vocabulary.
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We wrote F...
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and then looked over there. U...
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and we were just getting ready
to do the C,
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when my mother ran out
of the house...
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and started screaming.
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"What's the matter with you?"
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She's furious.
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You, go get a bucket of water.
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00:03:48,499 --> 00:03:49,768
You, go get a broom.
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00:03:49,901 --> 00:03:51,569
And we were crying
because we don't know
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what happened. We have to
get rid of the words...
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and she doesn't say the word,
she doesn't say what it is...
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she never does.
In my entire life...
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00:04:01,913 --> 00:04:03,048
I don't know how old I was
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00:04:03,181 --> 00:04:05,083
before I found out
what it meant.
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And she never tells us
what it's about.
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But ultimately, I knew...
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that words have power.
Words can do that to my mother,
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a word I don't even know.
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Now that is power.
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Toni: I get up
before the sun rises.
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I always get up early.
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I want to beat the sun.
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So I have to be there
just before it comes up.
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It's the best time.
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That part of the day
is incredible.
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I'm very, very smart,
early in the day.
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Later on I... ugh.
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What? But early,
I'm very good. Very sensitive.
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About three or four hours,
I'll work every morning.
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Cause I got up early to write
because I had small children.
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And if I got up at
five o' clock before they woke
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I could do some work.
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Then the children grew up
and went away.
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And, I was still getting up
at that hour
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and unwilling and unable
and unenthusiastic
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about writing after lunch...
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00:05:41,646 --> 00:05:42,848
or writing at night.
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The only time
I really wanted to do it
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and was good at it,
I thought,
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was very, very early in the day.
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It's still that way.
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Sometimes you're nudged.
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And sometimes
you're just searching,
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00:06:00,966 --> 00:06:03,568
to make the writing
interesting to me.
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It's not just writing, it's
I don't know what this means,
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but I have to find out
and I have to explore
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all the character's attitudes
and so on.
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I've got to know.
I really have to know.
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And the only way I can know,
and own what I know,
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is to write it...
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and then let you read it.
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So we both know.
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Farah: When you read
early reviews of Toni's work,
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those early,
sympathetic liberal reviewers
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00:06:35,133 --> 00:06:37,635
and I remember
one of them about Sula.
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And the reviewer says,
"She's got a great talent."
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"One day she won't limit it
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to only writing
about black people."
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Like, really,
it's limiting for her
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to write about black people. Like,
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no one says that when,
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you know, an Irish writer
writes about Irish people.
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You know, it's only limiting
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when you write
about black people.
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woman:
In spite of its richness
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and its thorough originality,
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one continually feels
its narrowness.
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Its refusal to brim over
into the world
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outside its provincial setting.
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Toni Morrison
is far too talented
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to remain only
a marvelous recorder
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of the black side
of provincial American life.
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If she is to maintain the large
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and serious audience
she deserves,
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she is going to have to address
a riskier contemporary reality.
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Toni: I have had reviews
in the past
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that have accused me of not
writing about white people.
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I remember a review of Sula
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in which the reviewer said,
"One day she," meaning me,
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"will have to face up
to the real responsibilities
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and get mature
and write about the real,
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00:08:05,991 --> 00:08:08,593
uh, confrontation
for black people,
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which is white people."
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As though our lives
have no meaning
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and no depth, without...
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00:08:18,737 --> 00:08:19,938
the white gaze.
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And I've spent
my entire writing life
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trying to make sure
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that the white gaze
was not the dominant one
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in any of my books.
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Angela:
Toni Morrison's project
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resides precisely
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in the effort
to discredit the...
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notion that this white male gaze
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must be omnipresent.
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Commentator: The center
of the Negro's life
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is the Southern town.
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And once a week, the family cart
rattles through its streets.
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The rich melodious tones
of Negro voices
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hover in the warm air
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as the men gather
to discuss the crop
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00:09:09,020 --> 00:09:10,621
and pass the time of day.
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For the women,
as well as the men,
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the town is a social center.
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The mainspring of gossip
and the human relations.
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It is by their spontaneity
in play or at work
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that we glimpse the innate
grace of these people.
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Toni:
In this country,
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many books,
particularly 40s, 50s,
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you could feel
the address of the narrator
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talking to somebody white.
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I could tell because they
are explaining things
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that they didn't have to explain
if they were talking to me.
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The assumption is that
the reader is a white person.
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And that troubled me.
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They were never talking to me.
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Even Frederick Douglass,
he's not talking to me.
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I can feel him holding back.
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And I understand that
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because the people
supporting him
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were abolitionists,
white people.
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And sometimes
he even says it.
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"These things
too terrible to relate."
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Like rape.
He didn't talk about it.
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Same thing I felt was true
with Ralph Ellison,
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I felt was true
with so many great writers.
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Invisible Man.
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00:10:36,207 --> 00:10:37,876
Invisible to whom?
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00:10:40,245 --> 00:10:42,080
Farah: When she says,
"Invisible to whom,"
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00:10:42,247 --> 00:10:43,681
about Invisible Man
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00:10:43,815 --> 00:10:46,985
which is like, how dare
she question the great novel,
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she doesn't question
whether or not
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it's a great novel.
She doesn't question
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whether or not
it's exquisitely written.
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She questions
that perspective
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that you are only defined
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by what your oppressor
thinks of you.
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It was like, guess what.
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00:11:01,332 --> 00:11:02,533
There's this whole
other world going on
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00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:04,269
when they aren't even looking.
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Toni:
"Not until the white folks left
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the gravediggers,
Mr. and Mrs. Hodges
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00:11:13,078 --> 00:11:15,146
and their young son
who assisted them,
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00:11:15,446 --> 00:11:17,648
did those black people
from up in the bottom
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00:11:17,883 --> 00:11:22,120
enter with hooded hearts
and filed eyes,
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00:11:22,387 --> 00:11:25,356
to sing,
"Shall We Gather at the River"
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00:11:25,690 --> 00:11:28,994
over the curved earth
that cut them off
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00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,131
from the most magnificent
hatred they had ever known.
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00:11:34,165 --> 00:11:37,302
Their question
clotted the October air,
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00:11:37,836 --> 00:11:40,105
Shall We Gather
at the River?
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00:11:40,471 --> 00:11:43,141
The beautiful,
the beautiful river?
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00:11:45,576 --> 00:11:47,678
Perhaps, Sula answered them
even then,
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00:11:48,179 --> 00:11:50,849
for it began to rain,
and the women ran
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00:11:50,982 --> 00:11:52,818
in tiny leaps through the grass
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for fear
their straightened hair
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would beat them home."
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Hilton:
My world is a black world.
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She was doing something
that a lot of black writers
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00:12:07,565 --> 00:12:09,901
who had come up
in the 70s weren't doing,
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00:12:10,035 --> 00:12:11,770
which was to write
about the stories
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00:12:11,937 --> 00:12:15,573
without having to talk
about excising... whiteness.
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00:12:15,874 --> 00:12:19,610
And she didn't do it in a way
that was about...
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00:12:20,345 --> 00:12:22,047
saying that the white world
was wrong.
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00:12:22,180 --> 00:12:23,581
The white world
was just peripheral,
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00:12:23,715 --> 00:12:25,283
if it existed at all.
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00:12:26,217 --> 00:12:28,053
Toni:
I didn't want to speak for...
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00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:29,921
black people
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00:12:30,255 --> 00:12:33,759
I wanted to speak to,
and to be among...
201
00:12:33,892 --> 00:12:35,126
it's us.
202
00:12:35,927 --> 00:12:37,195
So...
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00:12:37,595 --> 00:12:41,566
the first thing I had to do
was to eliminate the white gaze.
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00:12:41,733 --> 00:12:43,634
Jimmy Baldwin
used to talk about that,
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00:12:43,769 --> 00:12:46,237
the little white man
that sits on your shoulder
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00:12:47,238 --> 00:12:50,475
and checks out
everything you do and say.
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00:12:50,742 --> 00:12:54,112
Sort of knock him off.
And you know, you're free.
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00:12:54,379 --> 00:12:56,047
Now I own the world.
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00:12:56,214 --> 00:12:58,183
I mean I can write
about anything,
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00:12:58,750 --> 00:13:00,218
to anyone, for anyone.
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00:13:00,719 --> 00:13:05,290
I don't have to have this
white judgmental eye...
212
00:13:06,091 --> 00:13:07,859
checking me, editing me.
213
00:13:08,226 --> 00:13:09,761
Approving of me.
214
00:13:10,595 --> 00:13:13,564
It has nothing to do
with who reads the books.
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00:13:13,965 --> 00:13:16,567
Everyone, I hope,
of any race,
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00:13:16,701 --> 00:13:18,770
any gender, any country.
217
00:13:19,270 --> 00:13:20,906
But my sovereignty
218
00:13:21,239 --> 00:13:24,675
and my authority
as a racialized person
219
00:13:24,943 --> 00:13:29,047
had to be struck immediately
with the very first book.
220
00:13:36,021 --> 00:13:39,257
Every book I read
about young black girls,
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00:13:39,490 --> 00:13:41,326
they were props...
222
00:13:43,194 --> 00:13:44,429
jokes...
223
00:13:47,132 --> 00:13:48,366
topsy.
224
00:13:50,535 --> 00:13:53,204
No one took them
seriously, ever.
225
00:13:55,373 --> 00:13:57,008
I wanted to read
a book about that
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00:13:57,142 --> 00:13:59,310
and nobody
was writing about that.
227
00:14:01,346 --> 00:14:03,281
Even when I wrote
The Bluest Eye,
228
00:14:03,614 --> 00:14:07,385
I was really writing
a book I wanted to read.
229
00:14:07,853 --> 00:14:10,889
I hadn't seen a book
in which black girls
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00:14:11,156 --> 00:14:12,157
were center stage.
231
00:14:13,058 --> 00:14:15,460
I wanted to read a book
that had no codes,
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00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:18,764
no little notes explaining
things to white people.
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00:14:19,197 --> 00:14:20,498
And I had a major,
234
00:14:20,732 --> 00:14:23,201
major question in my mind
at that time.
235
00:14:23,368 --> 00:14:26,637
Which was,
"How does a child
236
00:14:26,805 --> 00:14:29,274
learn self-loathing?"
237
00:14:29,875 --> 00:14:31,376
Where does it come from?
238
00:14:31,843 --> 00:14:33,311
Who enables it?
239
00:14:33,812 --> 00:14:35,246
How is it infectious?
240
00:14:35,747 --> 00:14:37,482
And, what might be
the consequences?
241
00:14:37,682 --> 00:14:40,351
I'm not black.
I won't be black.
242
00:14:41,052 --> 00:14:42,153
Peola.
243
00:14:42,888 --> 00:14:45,556
She called me black.
Jesse called me that.
244
00:14:45,690 --> 00:14:48,559
Jessie Pullman,
for shame on you.
245
00:14:49,627 --> 00:14:52,697
You.
It's cause you're black.
246
00:14:53,131 --> 00:14:55,100
You make me black.
247
00:14:55,466 --> 00:14:58,069
I won't, I won't,
I won't be black.
248
00:14:58,203 --> 00:14:59,237
Jessie,
249
00:14:59,805 --> 00:15:02,974
how could you say such a mean,
cruel thing to Peola?
250
00:15:03,574 --> 00:15:05,977
Oh, it ain't her fault, Miss B.
251
00:15:06,144 --> 00:15:08,113
It ain't yours,
and it ain't mine.
252
00:15:08,679 --> 00:15:11,817
I don't know rightly
where the blame lies.
253
00:15:12,517 --> 00:15:16,254
This is The Bluest Eye,
a novel by Toni Morrison.
254
00:15:16,421 --> 00:15:17,823
It begins,
"Quiet as it's kept
255
00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:21,559
there were no marigolds
in the fall of 1941."
256
00:15:21,692 --> 00:15:23,094
It looks like
it should look, right?
257
00:15:23,261 --> 00:15:24,595
It's been used right.
258
00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:27,232
It's been held
and over the years, it's torn.
259
00:15:27,498 --> 00:15:30,035
I've thrown this book
across the room
260
00:15:30,168 --> 00:15:31,302
and picked it up, you know,
261
00:15:31,569 --> 00:15:33,371
and then walked down
the steps laughing.
262
00:15:33,504 --> 00:15:35,140
Like you read Toni
and you cry,
263
00:15:35,273 --> 00:15:37,442
but you got to laugh.
I say yeah, yeah.
264
00:15:37,575 --> 00:15:40,645
You really got it.
You got us all that time.
265
00:15:41,512 --> 00:15:43,614
I got you in my arena now,
ha, ha.
266
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:45,116
I got you.
You got to read this.
267
00:15:45,250 --> 00:15:46,551
I got you.
268
00:15:46,885 --> 00:15:48,353
You've got to deal
with it finally. I got you.
269
00:15:48,619 --> 00:15:51,356
And, if you don't laugh,
you know, you don't survive.
270
00:15:52,557 --> 00:15:54,359
Toni:
"Quiet as it's kept,
271
00:15:54,492 --> 00:15:57,929
there were no marigolds
in the fall of 1941.
272
00:15:58,429 --> 00:15:59,898
We thought at the time
273
00:16:00,231 --> 00:16:04,135
that it was because Pecola
was having her father's baby
274
00:16:04,435 --> 00:16:06,772
that the marigolds didn't grow.
275
00:16:07,405 --> 00:16:09,507
Our seeds were not
the only ones
276
00:16:09,674 --> 00:16:12,978
that did not sprout.
Nobody's did."
277
00:16:13,678 --> 00:16:16,581
I started my career
with The Bluest Eye
278
00:16:16,715 --> 00:16:19,885
of putting the entire plot
on the first page.
279
00:16:20,351 --> 00:16:21,953
So the reader
reads the first page,
280
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:23,621
he knows exactly
what happened.
281
00:16:23,922 --> 00:16:27,125
And if he turns the page
it's because he wants
282
00:16:27,258 --> 00:16:29,360
either to find out
how it happened
283
00:16:29,728 --> 00:16:31,629
or he loves the language.
284
00:16:31,963 --> 00:16:34,365
It's her rawest novel
285
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,203
and her raw
is really wonderful.
286
00:16:39,404 --> 00:16:42,473
It's truth
in so many different ways.
287
00:16:43,374 --> 00:16:44,810
Which is why it's still,
you know, I think,
288
00:16:44,943 --> 00:16:46,778
one of her
most controversial books.
289
00:16:46,945 --> 00:16:48,714
You know, people are, like,
always wanting to ban it
290
00:16:48,914 --> 00:16:50,916
and said, you know,
I can't let kids read it.
291
00:16:51,249 --> 00:16:53,584
But all the things
that people have trouble with
292
00:16:53,719 --> 00:16:55,954
is what I kind of love
about it.
293
00:16:56,421 --> 00:16:58,089
It's true in all of her books,
what I'm saying,
294
00:16:58,256 --> 00:17:01,459
but I think I like it most
in The Bluest Eye.
295
00:17:02,828 --> 00:17:07,598
I remember an incident
from my own childhood,
296
00:17:08,133 --> 00:17:10,568
when a very
close friend of mine and I,
297
00:17:10,769 --> 00:17:12,904
well, we were walking
down the street.
298
00:17:13,604 --> 00:17:14,773
We were discussing...
299
00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:19,344
whether God existed.
And she said he did not.
300
00:17:19,911 --> 00:17:20,779
And I said he did.
301
00:17:20,912 --> 00:17:22,480
But then she said
she had proof.
302
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,983
She said I had been praying...
303
00:17:25,683 --> 00:17:28,720
for two years for blue eyes...
304
00:17:29,554 --> 00:17:31,256
and he never gave me any.
305
00:17:33,992 --> 00:17:35,560
So I just remember
turning around
306
00:17:35,693 --> 00:17:36,895
and looking at her.
307
00:17:38,096 --> 00:17:39,564
She was very, very black
308
00:17:39,898 --> 00:17:42,868
and she was very, very,
very, very beautiful.
309
00:17:44,602 --> 00:17:46,037
How painful.
310
00:17:46,872 --> 00:17:49,440
Can you imagine
that kind of pain?
311
00:17:49,708 --> 00:17:51,710
About that, about color?
312
00:17:52,210 --> 00:17:55,981
So I wanted to say, you know,
this kind of racism hurts.
313
00:17:57,248 --> 00:18:01,820
This is not lynchings
and murders and drownings.
314
00:18:02,453 --> 00:18:04,756
This is interior pain.
315
00:18:06,391 --> 00:18:07,826
So deep...
316
00:18:08,727 --> 00:18:12,163
for an 11-year-old girl
to believe
317
00:18:12,430 --> 00:18:16,835
that if she only
had some characteristic
318
00:18:17,068 --> 00:18:18,636
of the white world...
319
00:18:19,137 --> 00:18:20,739
she would be okay.
320
00:18:22,741 --> 00:18:27,913
She surrendered completely
to the master narrative,
321
00:18:28,046 --> 00:18:30,348
I mean the whole notion
of what is ugliness.
322
00:18:30,481 --> 00:18:31,983
What is worthlessness.
323
00:18:33,651 --> 00:18:35,053
She got it from her family.
324
00:18:35,186 --> 00:18:37,488
She got it from school,
she got it from the movies,
325
00:18:37,655 --> 00:18:40,125
- she got it everywhere. She...
- The master narrative?
326
00:18:40,458 --> 00:18:43,161
It's white male life.
327
00:18:44,062 --> 00:18:48,299
The master narrative
is whatever ideological script
328
00:18:48,433 --> 00:18:51,069
that is being imposed
by the people
329
00:18:51,202 --> 00:18:53,004
in authority on everybody else.
330
00:18:53,471 --> 00:18:56,574
The master fiction, um, history,
331
00:18:57,008 --> 00:18:59,477
it has a certain
point of view.
332
00:19:00,678 --> 00:19:03,915
So, when these little girls see
333
00:19:04,149 --> 00:19:07,485
that the most prized gift
that they can get
334
00:19:07,618 --> 00:19:09,520
at Christmastime
is a little white doll,
335
00:19:09,888 --> 00:19:12,357
that's a master narrative speaking.
336
00:19:12,958 --> 00:19:14,659
This is beautiful,
this is lovely,
337
00:19:14,793 --> 00:19:15,994
and you're not it.
338
00:19:18,897 --> 00:19:20,665
Oprah: So we are talking
about The Bluest Eye
339
00:19:20,832 --> 00:19:23,668
by Toni Morrison. I really do
think it's a national treasure.
340
00:19:23,802 --> 00:19:24,936
Everybody should read it.
341
00:19:25,236 --> 00:19:26,972
Don't you think
the world would be different?
342
00:19:28,139 --> 00:19:30,075
In all the years
of the Oprah Book Club
343
00:19:30,208 --> 00:19:33,578
I chose four of her books.
So I wanted the world,
344
00:19:33,712 --> 00:19:36,381
as many people
who could hear my voice,
345
00:19:36,782 --> 00:19:39,785
to understand
the importance of her work.
346
00:19:40,085 --> 00:19:41,686
The reason why I love
the Book Club so much
347
00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:45,290
is because you want
to have enough books
348
00:19:45,456 --> 00:19:48,459
that people feel safe with.
They feel comfortable with.
349
00:19:48,593 --> 00:19:50,095
They feel like,
"Oh, I can get this
350
00:19:50,328 --> 00:19:54,432
when the books are about Robin
and Sue and Daniel and Jake."
351
00:19:54,565 --> 00:19:55,700
Get people to trust.
352
00:19:55,967 --> 00:19:57,535
They feel like,
"Oh, this is something safe
353
00:19:57,668 --> 00:19:59,237
I can read and I'm reading
about people I know
354
00:19:59,370 --> 00:20:02,107
and then bam!
Hit them with Toni Morrison!"
355
00:20:16,054 --> 00:20:18,957
Sonia: In order to survive,
you should re-read Toni
356
00:20:19,224 --> 00:20:22,460
every ten years
because every ten or 15 years,
357
00:20:22,828 --> 00:20:25,096
we have to re-imagine
ourselves
358
00:20:25,363 --> 00:20:26,865
on this American landscape.
359
00:20:27,032 --> 00:20:28,834
You won't survive
if you don't do that.
360
00:20:29,134 --> 00:20:31,069
Someone said reinvent.
I said, "No, no, no.
361
00:20:31,202 --> 00:20:33,104
Reinvent means
you don't like yourself. "
362
00:20:33,304 --> 00:20:34,505
There's something wrong.
363
00:20:34,773 --> 00:20:37,408
But reimagine us
on this American landscape.
364
00:20:37,542 --> 00:20:39,677
What I must do now,
how I must live,
365
00:20:39,811 --> 00:20:42,547
how I must rearrange,
you know, my vowels,
366
00:20:42,714 --> 00:20:44,850
how I must rearrange
my toe jam,
367
00:20:44,983 --> 00:20:47,285
how I must rearrange my hair,
my breasts,
368
00:20:47,485 --> 00:20:49,087
how I must rearrange
my thoughts.
369
00:20:53,358 --> 00:20:57,495
Toni: My grandparents
lived in Alabama
370
00:20:57,929 --> 00:21:00,265
and they had a small farm.
371
00:21:00,698 --> 00:21:02,901
They were sharecropping.
372
00:21:03,668 --> 00:21:06,037
My grandfather played
the violin.
373
00:21:06,404 --> 00:21:11,542
Extremely well, apparently,
and chose to go into Birmingham
374
00:21:11,843 --> 00:21:16,547
with his violin to make money.
Street... musician.
375
00:21:17,348 --> 00:21:20,351
My grandmother
got a message to him
376
00:21:20,485 --> 00:21:22,087
to say we are leaving...
377
00:21:22,954 --> 00:21:24,990
and we're getting on a train
378
00:21:25,490 --> 00:21:28,159
and we're going to Akron, Ohio.
379
00:21:28,827 --> 00:21:30,796
She had relatives in Akron.
380
00:21:31,797 --> 00:21:34,665
And if you want to see
your children,
381
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:36,768
or me again...
382
00:21:37,668 --> 00:21:39,137
you will be on that train.
383
00:21:40,939 --> 00:21:43,041
I cannot stay here.
384
00:21:43,341 --> 00:21:45,744
White boys are circling.
385
00:21:48,947 --> 00:21:50,916
That's all she had to say.
386
00:21:52,017 --> 00:21:53,985
White boys are circling
387
00:21:54,552 --> 00:21:56,154
and we have to leave.
388
00:21:56,788 --> 00:21:59,624
I will be on such
and such a train,
389
00:21:59,825 --> 00:22:02,627
such a such time, going north.
390
00:22:03,028 --> 00:22:07,032
If you want to see us again,
be on that train.
391
00:22:08,699 --> 00:22:10,168
So what she meant was,
392
00:22:10,501 --> 00:22:13,138
her girls were growing up.
They were probably,
393
00:22:13,338 --> 00:22:15,473
I don't know, 12 or 13.
394
00:22:15,874 --> 00:22:17,776
And white boys...
395
00:22:18,243 --> 00:22:21,379
would come around and look
at them, from a distance.
396
00:22:22,013 --> 00:22:24,149
But she knew
what they had in mind.
397
00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:30,688
Toni: They called him Big Papa.
398
00:22:30,956 --> 00:22:34,325
The train pulled off
and he was not there.
399
00:22:35,093 --> 00:22:38,429
He was on the train
but he didn't want anybody
400
00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:41,632
to see him leaving Birmingham
401
00:22:42,067 --> 00:22:44,770
because he thought he
would be taken off the train or
402
00:22:45,370 --> 00:22:47,939
arrested or whatever
they do to black people
403
00:22:48,173 --> 00:22:51,209
moving. So he was hiding
on the train.
404
00:22:51,542 --> 00:22:56,347
The family was thrilled to
death that Big Papa was there.
405
00:22:57,382 --> 00:22:59,718
My mother says
she was so happy
406
00:23:00,018 --> 00:23:06,024
because for the first time
they saw and ate white bread,
407
00:23:07,058 --> 00:23:10,195
which is easily
the worst thing in the world.
408
00:23:12,297 --> 00:23:16,034
And they made
their first stop in Ohio.
409
00:23:22,941 --> 00:23:26,544
What in the world
was in the water in Ohio...
410
00:23:26,677 --> 00:23:29,147
because there was something
in that water in Ohio
411
00:23:29,547 --> 00:23:32,017
that made you and Rita Dove
come out of Ohio
412
00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:33,919
and write what you wrote.
413
00:23:43,294 --> 00:23:45,797
Toni: It is my birth name. Chloe.
414
00:23:46,798 --> 00:23:48,599
My saint's name, Anthony.
415
00:23:48,934 --> 00:23:50,736
My maiden name, Wofford.
416
00:23:51,102 --> 00:23:52,670
People would mispronounced it
all the time.
417
00:23:52,804 --> 00:23:55,140
They said Chou.
Even my teachers.
418
00:23:56,975 --> 00:23:58,910
Chlow, Clough.
419
00:23:59,911 --> 00:24:01,446
Or, Clovis!
420
00:24:01,847 --> 00:24:04,783
So I just shortened it
to my saint's name.
421
00:24:05,216 --> 00:24:09,120
And then, of course,
the married name, Morrison.
422
00:24:11,422 --> 00:24:13,859
It's a way
of dividing your life.
423
00:24:15,426 --> 00:24:19,831
One of those names
is the person who is out there.
424
00:24:21,199 --> 00:24:23,634
And the other one is the one
who isn't,
425
00:24:23,969 --> 00:24:26,437
who doesn't do documentaries.
426
00:24:30,375 --> 00:24:32,077
Hilton: Middle America
is her place,
427
00:24:32,243 --> 00:24:34,645
because it's the South,
and it's the West
428
00:24:34,913 --> 00:24:36,547
and it's the East,
and it's a river
429
00:24:36,681 --> 00:24:38,316
and it all comes together.
430
00:24:40,685 --> 00:24:43,388
Toni's Lorain. It's her beat.
431
00:24:44,155 --> 00:24:47,092
Really, it's almost, sort of,
taken out of the pages
432
00:24:47,225 --> 00:24:48,994
of The Bluest Eye.
433
00:24:50,796 --> 00:24:52,731
Toni:
It was a steel town
434
00:24:52,964 --> 00:24:55,801
on the shore of Lake Erie.
435
00:24:56,034 --> 00:24:57,869
And there was work there.
436
00:24:59,304 --> 00:25:02,440
Full of immigrants
from Poland...
437
00:25:03,875 --> 00:25:04,843
Italy...
438
00:25:05,777 --> 00:25:08,880
some black people from Canada
who had escaped,
439
00:25:09,047 --> 00:25:11,449
you know, and gone to Canada
and come back.
440
00:25:13,051 --> 00:25:14,820
So it was highly mixed...
441
00:25:15,754 --> 00:25:17,422
in terms of culture and race.
442
00:25:19,858 --> 00:25:21,860
You had this poor labor class
443
00:25:22,227 --> 00:25:25,263
and very few
middle class people.
444
00:25:27,866 --> 00:25:30,401
We were very, very poor.
445
00:25:31,837 --> 00:25:33,171
We moved a lot
446
00:25:33,304 --> 00:25:35,340
because we couldn't afford
the rent.
447
00:25:36,641 --> 00:25:38,009
Which was four dollars.
448
00:25:39,044 --> 00:25:41,512
My mother cooked
and washed, and so on.
449
00:25:42,180 --> 00:25:45,751
My father worked,
steel mills different hours.
450
00:25:46,451 --> 00:25:49,788
So it was irregular,
when he was home.
451
00:25:51,622 --> 00:25:55,460
I'm not sure
that people understand
452
00:25:55,626 --> 00:25:57,628
that poverty was not shameful
453
00:25:58,063 --> 00:25:59,230
as it is now.
454
00:25:59,430 --> 00:26:02,200
There was no pressure
to get ahead.
455
00:26:02,467 --> 00:26:03,534
You know really ahead.
456
00:26:03,668 --> 00:26:06,204
What you wanted
was your family and your health
457
00:26:06,537 --> 00:26:08,940
and enough resources
to get food,
458
00:26:09,107 --> 00:26:10,375
and to pay the bills.
459
00:26:10,641 --> 00:26:13,644
And if that happened,
and you had your churches
460
00:26:13,779 --> 00:26:15,246
and your friends,
and that was it.
461
00:26:17,448 --> 00:26:19,017
The people
who lived next door
462
00:26:19,150 --> 00:26:22,087
when we moved to 21st Street
were Russian.
463
00:26:22,620 --> 00:26:25,490
My mother and the woman,
they use to trade recipes.
464
00:26:26,657 --> 00:26:29,094
My mother learned how
to cook some kind of cabbage
465
00:26:29,627 --> 00:26:32,030
thingy from her.
466
00:26:32,430 --> 00:26:34,299
And the people
who lived over there,
467
00:26:34,465 --> 00:26:36,001
you know,
we're something else.
468
00:26:36,201 --> 00:26:37,668
Those people were black.
469
00:26:37,936 --> 00:26:39,570
There were like
two black families
470
00:26:39,704 --> 00:26:40,906
on that street.
471
00:26:41,072 --> 00:26:42,908
There were neighbors
and they watched.
472
00:26:43,541 --> 00:26:46,344
Nobody was in there
messing with anybody.
473
00:26:46,611 --> 00:26:49,881
It was calm.
I thought it was boring.
474
00:26:54,052 --> 00:26:55,887
I read all the time.
475
00:26:57,723 --> 00:27:00,091
And my mother
and my grandparents
476
00:27:00,225 --> 00:27:02,593
were very eager
that we keep that up
477
00:27:02,728 --> 00:27:04,062
because they had come
from a place
478
00:27:04,195 --> 00:27:06,497
where you couldn't read.
479
00:27:07,132 --> 00:27:08,333
There were no schools
480
00:27:08,767 --> 00:27:12,303
and they felt very strongly
about that skill.
481
00:27:14,873 --> 00:27:16,708
My mother
joined the book clubs.
482
00:27:16,908 --> 00:27:21,046
It was a very precious thing
and they were proud of it.
483
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,248
Anchor:
We were appalled to learn
484
00:27:23,381 --> 00:27:25,150
that Ohio school's leader
Debe Terhar
485
00:27:25,283 --> 00:27:29,454
has called for banning
Toni Morrison's 1970 novel,
486
00:27:29,587 --> 00:27:30,822
The Bluest Eye
487
00:27:31,122 --> 00:27:32,858
from the state's Common Core
recommended reading list
488
00:27:32,991 --> 00:27:33,925
for 11th graders.
489
00:27:34,125 --> 00:27:35,827
Now Terhar describes the book
490
00:27:35,961 --> 00:27:37,528
as pornographic and said, quote,
491
00:27:37,662 --> 00:27:39,364
"I don't want
my grandchildren reading it
492
00:27:39,497 --> 00:27:41,566
and I don't want anyone else's
children reading it.
493
00:27:41,767 --> 00:27:43,534
It should not be used
in any school
494
00:27:43,668 --> 00:27:47,038
for any Ohio
K through 12 child."
495
00:27:48,373 --> 00:27:50,876
I think history
has always proved that books
496
00:27:51,042 --> 00:27:52,210
are the first...
497
00:27:52,610 --> 00:27:56,314
uh, plain on which certain kinds
of battles are fought.
498
00:27:56,581 --> 00:28:00,385
Parents have a right
to restrict books
499
00:28:00,986 --> 00:28:02,387
in the home.
500
00:28:02,954 --> 00:28:04,089
They have a right
501
00:28:04,522 --> 00:28:06,992
to tell their own children
what to read.
502
00:28:07,893 --> 00:28:11,396
They don't have the right
to tell my children
503
00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:12,530
what to read,
504
00:28:13,231 --> 00:28:16,334
which is what happens
when you ban a book publicly.
505
00:28:16,534 --> 00:28:21,506
I have a little framed document
in my bathroom,
506
00:28:21,740 --> 00:28:26,111
a letter from, I think,
Texas Bureau of Corrections,
507
00:28:26,511 --> 00:28:31,382
saying that Paradise
was banned from the prison
508
00:28:31,917 --> 00:28:35,286
because it might incite a riot.
509
00:28:36,621 --> 00:28:39,624
And I thought,
how powerful is that?
510
00:28:40,425 --> 00:28:42,928
I could tear up the whole place!
511
00:28:45,463 --> 00:28:49,234
David: There's something
about her skills with language,
512
00:28:50,635 --> 00:28:53,304
so that not only do
the reader's feel
513
00:28:53,471 --> 00:28:57,175
that she's talking to them
and they can talk back,
514
00:28:57,943 --> 00:28:59,344
that they're finding
in Morrison
515
00:28:59,477 --> 00:29:01,980
a new language
about themselves,
516
00:29:02,247 --> 00:29:03,882
about the condition
they live in.
517
00:29:04,049 --> 00:29:09,020
And that discovery gives them
a sense of transcendence.
518
00:29:09,187 --> 00:29:12,423
Toni Morrison's work
is for all of us,
519
00:29:13,058 --> 00:29:17,062
her words her languaging,
is a friend to our minds.
520
00:29:17,195 --> 00:29:18,496
That's what you're feeling
521
00:29:18,663 --> 00:29:21,299
when you're in the midst
of a read.
522
00:29:21,432 --> 00:29:24,335
It comforts you
and consoles you
523
00:29:24,602 --> 00:29:28,239
and allows you to understand
that pain is okay.
524
00:29:28,406 --> 00:29:32,443
She reaches into the depths
of pain and shows us,
525
00:29:32,577 --> 00:29:35,180
through pain,
all the myriad ways
526
00:29:35,313 --> 00:29:38,183
we can come to love.
That is what she does...
527
00:29:38,884 --> 00:29:40,218
with some words on a page.
528
00:29:40,651 --> 00:29:42,721
That is what she's doing
all the time.
529
00:29:43,421 --> 00:29:45,656
She's teaching us,
all the time.
530
00:29:45,791 --> 00:29:48,593
There's not a sentence
that is not filled
531
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,630
with depth of meaning
and knowledge
532
00:29:52,831 --> 00:29:54,165
and information.
533
00:29:56,034 --> 00:29:58,169
Toni:
Books were interesting to me.
534
00:29:58,770 --> 00:30:01,506
I read everything
that was in the library.
535
00:30:02,107 --> 00:30:03,041
Everything.
536
00:30:03,674 --> 00:30:05,443
But mostly,
it was the language,
537
00:30:05,576 --> 00:30:09,147
you know, different ways
to say the same thing.
538
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,517
Choices that the authors
were making in order
539
00:30:12,683 --> 00:30:16,154
to tell me something
or make me see something.
540
00:30:16,421 --> 00:30:19,457
That was what was fantastic.
Still is.
541
00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:24,395
My sister, when she graduated
from high school,
542
00:30:24,595 --> 00:30:26,631
got a job in the library.
543
00:30:27,632 --> 00:30:31,737
And she very sweetly
got me a job as a pusher.
544
00:30:32,303 --> 00:30:34,272
You would take the books
off of a cart
545
00:30:34,572 --> 00:30:36,174
and put them back
in the shelves.
546
00:30:36,307 --> 00:30:38,109
The children's part
was on the bottom
547
00:30:38,243 --> 00:30:40,245
and then above
was Dostoevsky.
548
00:30:40,411 --> 00:30:42,547
I mean,
they didn't have young adult.
549
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:43,581
That didn't exist.
550
00:30:44,082 --> 00:30:47,152
It was just little kiddy books
and then the real world.
551
00:30:47,452 --> 00:30:50,588
But I was slow
because I kept reading the books
552
00:30:50,889 --> 00:30:53,424
instead of putting them back, fast.
553
00:30:53,792 --> 00:30:56,694
So I got promoted
to the catalogue department.
554
00:30:57,963 --> 00:31:01,099
Where I worked
until I went away to college.
555
00:31:04,435 --> 00:31:07,773
I remember reading at 13, Sula.
556
00:31:08,006 --> 00:31:10,541
There was a group
of girls on my block.
557
00:31:10,842 --> 00:31:12,811
Believe it or not in between
jumping Double Dutch
558
00:31:13,078 --> 00:31:16,381
and playing jacks,
we also shared books.
559
00:31:17,248 --> 00:31:19,684
And somehow
in that circulation
560
00:31:19,818 --> 00:31:21,486
there was this book Sula,
561
00:31:21,619 --> 00:31:25,156
with this black woman
with a soft afro on the cover
562
00:31:25,523 --> 00:31:28,794
and we read it.
And I remember my friends,
563
00:31:29,060 --> 00:31:30,661
they could not stand Sula
564
00:31:30,829 --> 00:31:33,799
because she slept with her
best friend's husband.
565
00:31:34,599 --> 00:31:37,035
And actually that just made her
more interesting to me.
566
00:31:37,202 --> 00:31:39,170
you know, she broke a taboo.
567
00:31:41,272 --> 00:31:42,407
Seeing that
568
00:31:42,841 --> 00:31:45,376
there was a character
like Sula in the world,
569
00:31:45,543 --> 00:31:50,115
it just gave me a world
of language to escape to
570
00:31:50,348 --> 00:31:51,850
but also a world
that I recognized
571
00:31:52,217 --> 00:31:56,521
as a young black woman
in a working class community.
572
00:31:57,322 --> 00:32:00,391
It showed me
the magic of my own world
573
00:32:01,159 --> 00:32:02,527
that I didn't see.
574
00:32:02,693 --> 00:32:04,495
And after reading her
it was hard to see
575
00:32:04,629 --> 00:32:06,832
my own world
in the same way.
576
00:32:09,134 --> 00:32:12,537
Walter: The novelist job
is to take you someplace
577
00:32:13,271 --> 00:32:15,373
that you couldn't even imagine.
578
00:32:15,606 --> 00:32:17,475
The novelist job
is to turn you back
579
00:32:17,608 --> 00:32:20,545
into a child,
who's just learned how to read.
580
00:32:21,212 --> 00:32:23,782
And just learned
how to imagine
581
00:32:24,115 --> 00:32:26,251
what the language is saying.
582
00:32:28,453 --> 00:32:30,756
Toni tells
extraordinary stories,
583
00:32:31,022 --> 00:32:34,826
that touch people
in a very deep place.
584
00:32:35,026 --> 00:32:37,996
The story is almost
kind of like the bait.
585
00:32:38,163 --> 00:32:39,664
Some people read those books.
586
00:32:39,798 --> 00:32:42,200
Some people make those books
into movies.
587
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:45,270
Some people tell those stories
to other people.
588
00:32:45,503 --> 00:32:47,739
Some people teach those books
to people
589
00:32:47,873 --> 00:32:49,540
who have no interest
in reading,
590
00:32:49,741 --> 00:32:51,910
but when they hear the story,
it transforms their lives.
591
00:32:52,043 --> 00:32:55,380
They go, "Wow, I never thought
of that before."
592
00:32:56,481 --> 00:32:59,818
Books have an incredible
impact on our culture,
593
00:33:00,118 --> 00:33:03,221
even though most of our culture
doesn't know it.
594
00:33:04,255 --> 00:33:07,592
David: In 1995 I traveled
with Toni to Mexico City.
595
00:33:07,826 --> 00:33:10,361
But when we arrived
we couldn't get out of the car.
596
00:33:10,495 --> 00:33:12,263
There were so many people
that were there
597
00:33:12,430 --> 00:33:13,765
to see Toni Morrison.
598
00:33:15,433 --> 00:33:17,268
Somebody else
on the stage said,
599
00:33:17,402 --> 00:33:19,337
"Would you like us to translate,
600
00:33:19,604 --> 00:33:22,340
to have a simultaneous
translator into Spanish
601
00:33:22,473 --> 00:33:24,475
of what Toni Morrison
reads and says?"
602
00:33:24,609 --> 00:33:28,613
In unison, from the audience,
it was, "No!
603
00:33:29,514 --> 00:33:32,050
We want to just hear
Toni Morrison.
604
00:33:32,550 --> 00:33:34,352
We understand her
605
00:33:34,753 --> 00:33:37,723
because we are in her
language, too."
606
00:33:38,523 --> 00:33:41,326
They know
that there's a freedom
607
00:33:41,559 --> 00:33:43,261
in this woman's language.
608
00:33:43,561 --> 00:33:46,064
She took the canon
of the written language
609
00:33:46,331 --> 00:33:47,532
and she broke it open.
610
00:33:47,665 --> 00:33:49,400
She's the Emancipation Proclamation
611
00:33:49,534 --> 00:33:50,902
of the English language.
612
00:33:53,238 --> 00:33:55,173
Farah: Everywhere
I've traveled in the world,
613
00:33:55,506 --> 00:33:56,607
I go to a bookstore.
614
00:33:56,742 --> 00:33:59,477
There's always
a Morrison section.
615
00:33:59,644 --> 00:34:03,314
I get emails
from women in China
616
00:34:03,581 --> 00:34:05,884
or in Japan
who are studying her.
617
00:34:06,017 --> 00:34:10,055
I have graduate students from
Asia, Africa, Latin America.
618
00:34:10,388 --> 00:34:14,459
Morrison is a global figure.
She's a global phenomena.
619
00:34:14,793 --> 00:34:16,962
And she speaks
to people everywhere.
620
00:34:17,495 --> 00:34:19,097
If there's life on Mars
621
00:34:19,630 --> 00:34:21,366
they're reading Toni Morrison
to find out
622
00:34:21,499 --> 00:34:23,001
what it is to be human.
623
00:34:31,877 --> 00:34:34,645
Toni: They were so physically
strict with us,
624
00:34:35,580 --> 00:34:38,483
when I was a kid,
I mean, you know, side eye.
625
00:34:38,683 --> 00:34:40,018
You don't sit next to no guy.
626
00:34:40,151 --> 00:34:43,188
You know, they were
very serious about that,
627
00:34:43,354 --> 00:34:44,622
particularly with the girls.
628
00:34:44,856 --> 00:34:46,524
I don't think they did that
with my brothers,
629
00:34:46,725 --> 00:34:48,994
the younger ones,
but with the girls, you know.
630
00:34:49,227 --> 00:34:51,863
There was a wonderful place
where we could all go and dance,
631
00:34:52,097 --> 00:34:55,633
down south Lorain.
My mother walked us there...
632
00:34:56,167 --> 00:34:57,668
and walked us back!
633
00:35:01,106 --> 00:35:03,641
My sister got married
out of high school.
634
00:35:04,542 --> 00:35:05,543
I didn't...
635
00:35:06,244 --> 00:35:08,880
so I was, sort of,
a wild card out there.
636
00:35:11,249 --> 00:35:13,118
I really wanted to go
to college A
637
00:35:13,251 --> 00:35:16,221
to get away from my family
since I was...
638
00:35:16,487 --> 00:35:19,457
15 or 16. And you know
how families are,
639
00:35:19,590 --> 00:35:21,159
they tell you
"take off that lipstick",
640
00:35:21,292 --> 00:35:22,427
you know, stuff like that.
641
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,695
But for me
it was leaving home...
642
00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:27,565
as well as going
toward a place
643
00:35:27,698 --> 00:35:28,834
where I could read.
644
00:35:31,202 --> 00:35:33,371
I had an uncle
who had gone a year
645
00:35:33,504 --> 00:35:34,906
at Ohio State.
646
00:35:35,841 --> 00:35:40,245
And I lived very close,
like seven miles from Oberlin.
647
00:35:41,512 --> 00:35:43,949
And my mother said,
"Okay, well, go to Oberlin."
648
00:35:44,883 --> 00:35:47,652
And I thought, uh-uh,
she's going to call me up
649
00:35:47,786 --> 00:35:49,888
and she's gonna say, "Come here
and wash these clothes."
650
00:35:50,021 --> 00:35:53,158
So I wanted to go a distance.
And I knew about Howard
651
00:35:53,324 --> 00:35:55,994
so I applied and went.
652
00:36:06,437 --> 00:36:07,939
When I got to Howard...
653
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:10,541
I was loose.
654
00:36:12,811 --> 00:36:14,913
It's lovely.
I just loved it.
655
00:36:15,146 --> 00:36:19,417
I'm sure I overdid it,
but I don't regret it now.
656
00:36:22,821 --> 00:36:27,425
I was just the best baker.
Particularly my sweets.
657
00:36:27,826 --> 00:36:29,995
And I made
the best carrot cake.
658
00:36:30,128 --> 00:36:31,329
It's still the best.
659
00:36:31,529 --> 00:36:33,732
No one, not even my sister,
who's close.
660
00:36:33,899 --> 00:36:35,734
They don't put
enough carrots in!
661
00:36:40,438 --> 00:36:43,508
There were guys on the faculty,
young guys...
662
00:36:43,875 --> 00:36:46,177
and they used to pay me
25 dollars
663
00:36:46,444 --> 00:36:47,678
for one of my cakes.
664
00:36:48,146 --> 00:36:51,016
And they always said, "Toni,
no matter what you do in life
665
00:36:51,216 --> 00:36:55,653
you will always be
the woman who bakes my cakes."
666
00:36:59,357 --> 00:37:03,394
I was an English major
at Howard University.
667
00:37:03,528 --> 00:37:09,100
But in the drama department,
they read things differently.
668
00:37:09,868 --> 00:37:12,637
You have to know the emotions,
you have to know the conflicts,
669
00:37:12,804 --> 00:37:15,273
you have to know, you know,
all these subtleties
670
00:37:15,406 --> 00:37:16,674
that are in the language
671
00:37:16,808 --> 00:37:18,710
which you express
physically and so on.
672
00:37:19,244 --> 00:37:22,447
So I always preferred
the drama department
673
00:37:22,748 --> 00:37:24,615
and the Howard Players.
674
00:37:26,284 --> 00:37:30,455
I was very very good
in one part, Queen Elizabeth.
675
00:37:31,356 --> 00:37:32,623
I was excellent.
676
00:37:33,458 --> 00:37:38,629
And I turned out
to be a star in that one play.
677
00:37:42,067 --> 00:37:44,502
They wouldn't teach
any Black stuff
678
00:37:44,702 --> 00:37:46,537
in the English department.
679
00:37:47,638 --> 00:37:48,874
The closer you got
680
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,178
to whiteness, culturally, academically,
681
00:37:53,378 --> 00:37:55,981
the better off you were.
Now this is a black school
682
00:37:56,181 --> 00:37:59,150
funded in large part
by the government.
683
00:38:00,318 --> 00:38:03,054
I remember going
to my Shakespeare teacher,
684
00:38:03,354 --> 00:38:08,159
who was very good,
describing to him what I wanted
685
00:38:08,393 --> 00:38:10,261
to write my paper on.
686
00:38:11,029 --> 00:38:13,431
And I thought I would write
about Black characters
687
00:38:13,631 --> 00:38:14,733
in Shakespeare.
688
00:38:15,066 --> 00:38:18,837
And he was so outraged.
He said, "What?
689
00:38:19,337 --> 00:38:20,338
We... we're not."
690
00:38:20,739 --> 00:38:22,874
Like it was sullying
Shakespeare's name.
691
00:38:23,108 --> 00:38:25,877
There were just four characters
I wanted to talk about.
692
00:38:26,144 --> 00:38:28,980
No, he wouldn't let me.
So I wrote something else.
693
00:38:31,682 --> 00:38:32,884
Charlie:
You went away to Howard
694
00:38:33,018 --> 00:38:34,552
- and then to Cornell.
- Mm-hmm.
695
00:38:35,186 --> 00:38:37,388
Charlie: Did you dream
of teaching or writing or what?
696
00:38:37,555 --> 00:38:39,090
- Toni: Oh, teaching.
- Charlie: Teaching.
697
00:38:39,224 --> 00:38:41,026
I wanted to be a teacher,
and I was.
698
00:38:41,459 --> 00:38:43,995
And I did that. I mean,
when I left graduate school,
699
00:38:44,162 --> 00:38:45,897
I taught
at Texas Southern University
700
00:38:46,031 --> 00:38:47,866
and then I went
to Howard University again
701
00:38:48,066 --> 00:38:49,434
as a teacher
and stayed there
702
00:38:49,567 --> 00:38:51,136
until I couldn't
stay there any longer.
703
00:38:51,269 --> 00:38:53,171
- Because?
- I didn't have a PhD.
704
00:38:56,341 --> 00:38:58,309
Toni: When I was teaching
at Princeton,
705
00:38:58,443 --> 00:39:01,346
I had one course
in creative writing.
706
00:39:02,247 --> 00:39:04,750
And I would tell the students,
I do not want you
707
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:07,085
to write anything
about your little life.
708
00:39:07,218 --> 00:39:10,055
I know you have been taught
to write what you know.
709
00:39:10,621 --> 00:39:12,791
I'm telling you,
do not do that.
710
00:39:13,024 --> 00:39:16,661
You don't know anything.
So I want you to invent.
711
00:39:17,128 --> 00:39:21,032
I want you to write
about a Mexican girl
712
00:39:21,366 --> 00:39:25,103
who doesn't speak English,
who has a job in Houston,
713
00:39:25,236 --> 00:39:27,906
as a waitress,
as a counter girl.
714
00:39:28,306 --> 00:39:30,375
And I would throw out
these ideas
715
00:39:30,541 --> 00:39:33,912
that were far distant
from anything in their lives.
716
00:39:34,245 --> 00:39:37,482
And I have to tell you,
they really took it
717
00:39:37,615 --> 00:39:41,319
and ran with it. It was almost
like a door opened.
718
00:39:43,354 --> 00:39:45,390
Walter: If somebody were saying
what do you think
719
00:39:45,623 --> 00:39:49,494
Toni is in literature,
720
00:39:50,028 --> 00:39:53,865
I would say she had come to
721
00:39:53,999 --> 00:39:57,402
an ideal place
and what that place is,
722
00:39:57,602 --> 00:40:00,739
it's Shakespearean,
but pedestrian.
723
00:40:01,472 --> 00:40:05,176
In the old days everybody
in the tragedies
724
00:40:05,777 --> 00:40:08,446
were kings and princes
and you know,
725
00:40:08,613 --> 00:40:10,081
really important people.
726
00:40:11,082 --> 00:40:13,885
Toni's characters,
the level of drama
727
00:40:14,019 --> 00:40:18,423
and tragedy was about
people living everyday lives.
728
00:40:19,224 --> 00:40:21,960
Black people, poor people,
women, men, you know, whatever.
729
00:40:22,093 --> 00:40:26,331
But the big thing about it was,
is that it was pedestrian.
730
00:40:29,835 --> 00:40:31,803
Paula: They'd never been
seen before.
731
00:40:32,470 --> 00:40:35,340
And something else
hadn't been seen,
732
00:40:36,074 --> 00:40:37,408
which was a book
733
00:40:37,675 --> 00:40:40,678
that revolved around
the friendship of women.
734
00:40:41,612 --> 00:40:43,114
That was the centerpiece.
735
00:40:45,016 --> 00:40:49,120
She puts women at the center
of these epic narratives.
736
00:40:52,958 --> 00:40:54,325
She said, you know,
if you don't understand
737
00:40:54,459 --> 00:40:57,462
the history
of African-American women,
738
00:40:57,796 --> 00:40:59,998
you don't understand
the history of America.
739
00:41:04,702 --> 00:41:06,137
It covers four centuries.
740
00:41:06,504 --> 00:41:09,240
There are four centuries
covered in her work.
741
00:41:12,543 --> 00:41:18,149
And so what she does
is to step into those times...
742
00:41:20,085 --> 00:41:21,419
and places...
743
00:41:24,455 --> 00:41:26,191
and just re-imagines.
744
00:41:30,128 --> 00:41:31,429
David:
You imagine the past
745
00:41:31,562 --> 00:41:32,998
because the past
has been ruptured.
746
00:41:33,164 --> 00:41:35,033
The record of the past,
of your people,
747
00:41:35,166 --> 00:41:37,702
has been degraded.
It's been burned up.
748
00:41:37,869 --> 00:41:39,337
It's been taken away.
749
00:41:41,606 --> 00:41:43,374
And therefore
you need the Toni
750
00:41:43,508 --> 00:41:48,146
who comes into that past
and imagines it historically,
751
00:41:48,313 --> 00:41:51,216
by putting together fragments
and pieces and narratives,
752
00:41:51,516 --> 00:41:53,852
that you know, the white world
and the white libraries,
753
00:41:53,985 --> 00:41:55,453
they've ignored,
they've kept out.
754
00:41:57,555 --> 00:41:59,825
Toni:
When I was teaching at Howard,
755
00:42:00,091 --> 00:42:04,796
I got married, had my sons,
And got divorced.
756
00:42:06,631 --> 00:42:11,236
I had subscribed to the
New York Review of Books
757
00:42:11,770 --> 00:42:15,741
before I left Washington
with my infants
758
00:42:16,107 --> 00:42:18,109
and moved in with my mother.
759
00:42:19,177 --> 00:42:24,415
One day, three copies
of the same issue appeared
760
00:42:24,615 --> 00:42:27,152
in my mother's mailbox.
761
00:42:27,753 --> 00:42:30,121
And I thought that was odd...
762
00:42:31,189 --> 00:42:33,391
but I looked at it
and in the back
763
00:42:33,524 --> 00:42:35,693
there were all these advertisements
764
00:42:36,127 --> 00:42:39,330
for professional jobs.
765
00:42:40,398 --> 00:42:43,969
And among them
was an opening
766
00:42:44,535 --> 00:42:46,437
for a job in Syracuse.
767
00:42:47,906 --> 00:42:52,410
man: "A major publisher
requires an executive editor.
768
00:42:52,944 --> 00:42:55,213
Male or female.
769
00:42:55,646 --> 00:42:59,184
Originality and imagination
are necessary.
770
00:42:59,550 --> 00:43:04,956
We prefer a person
between the ages of 35 and 45,
771
00:43:05,123 --> 00:43:06,858
with a master's degree.
772
00:43:07,492 --> 00:43:11,062
Some experience
in teaching is desirable.
773
00:43:11,496 --> 00:43:15,767
All replies will be held
in strict confidence.
774
00:43:16,267 --> 00:43:20,705
Box Z
New York Review of Books."
775
00:43:21,339 --> 00:43:25,143
And I remember saying,
"Ah, that sounds like me".
776
00:43:25,376 --> 00:43:31,549
♪ This train is bound for glory
This train ♪
777
00:43:34,820 --> 00:43:38,890
♪ This train Brother Spain
Is bound for glory ♪
778
00:43:39,090 --> 00:43:41,026
♪ You know this train ♪
779
00:43:44,262 --> 00:43:45,530
♪ This train... ♪
780
00:43:45,831 --> 00:43:49,067
Toni: I left my babies
at home with my mother.
781
00:43:50,068 --> 00:43:54,005
My sister and I
got in my father's car...
782
00:43:54,605 --> 00:43:57,108
he had an Oldsmobile
by then,
783
00:43:57,709 --> 00:43:59,010
which he treasured,
784
00:43:59,144 --> 00:44:02,480
since the car he had before
had no brakes
785
00:44:03,014 --> 00:44:05,283
and we had to jump out
whenever we got
786
00:44:05,416 --> 00:44:08,720
to the place he was taking us to
787
00:44:09,054 --> 00:44:12,123
or he hit the curb
and say, "Go."
788
00:44:12,891 --> 00:44:14,359
So now we have a car.
789
00:44:14,793 --> 00:44:16,527
We drive, my sister and I...
790
00:44:17,128 --> 00:44:19,097
to Syracuse.
791
00:44:20,298 --> 00:44:23,568
I interviewed
and I got the job.
792
00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:28,206
That's the beginning
of my work there
793
00:44:28,639 --> 00:44:30,141
before Random House
794
00:44:30,608 --> 00:44:33,378
bought that company
which was called
795
00:44:33,544 --> 00:44:35,146
the L. W. Singer company
796
00:44:35,580 --> 00:44:37,682
and everybody
had to go to New York,
797
00:44:37,849 --> 00:44:40,051
that they wanted
to go to New York.
798
00:44:40,919 --> 00:44:42,520
And, they took me.
799
00:44:49,494 --> 00:44:51,262
Paula: I was
in a secretarial pool
800
00:44:51,462 --> 00:44:54,733
at Random House in 1969.
801
00:44:55,433 --> 00:44:57,635
Toni came and was an editor
in the trade division
802
00:44:57,803 --> 00:45:00,271
on the floor
where I was working.
803
00:45:00,671 --> 00:45:02,540
My friends and I
got to know her better
804
00:45:02,673 --> 00:45:04,943
when one day
she came to ask us
805
00:45:05,076 --> 00:45:06,745
to do some typing for her.
806
00:45:07,012 --> 00:45:08,279
And we said, "Sure."
807
00:45:08,413 --> 00:45:10,048
And she said,
if you type it, you know,
808
00:45:10,181 --> 00:45:11,549
I'm going to come
to your apartment
809
00:45:11,682 --> 00:45:13,684
and I'm going to make you
the best carrot cake
810
00:45:13,852 --> 00:45:14,953
you've ever had.
811
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:16,955
So we thought
that was a very good deal.
812
00:45:17,088 --> 00:45:18,790
And sure enough Toni
came one day
813
00:45:18,924 --> 00:45:20,892
and made the best
carrot cake yet
814
00:45:21,026 --> 00:45:22,527
I still have ever had.
815
00:45:22,660 --> 00:45:25,630
And it was not until later
that I realized
816
00:45:25,764 --> 00:45:28,466
that we were typing
part of The Bluest Eye.
817
00:45:34,505 --> 00:45:39,677
Robert: 1970.
I was 39. Toni was 39.
818
00:45:40,145 --> 00:45:41,913
We both worked
at Random House.
819
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,582
Within the overall
Random House exists
820
00:45:44,816 --> 00:45:47,418
Alfred Knopf, which I ran
for many many years,
821
00:45:47,786 --> 00:45:51,456
Vintage, Doubleday.
It's got many many parts.
822
00:45:52,123 --> 00:45:56,327
Toni was an editor at what
we call a Little Random
823
00:45:56,494 --> 00:45:58,296
and I was running Alfred Knopf.
824
00:45:58,864 --> 00:46:01,466
Toni: I think, they don't know
that I'm a writer.
825
00:46:02,801 --> 00:46:04,402
I'm going to keep it that way.
826
00:46:05,236 --> 00:46:06,704
Editor, that's what they want.
827
00:46:06,905 --> 00:46:10,041
They don't want a writer.
Editors are not writers.
828
00:46:10,375 --> 00:46:12,711
So I don't tell anybody.
And I think that works?
829
00:46:12,844 --> 00:46:14,212
No, it doesn't.
830
00:46:17,849 --> 00:46:19,650
Robert: I became aware
of her as a writer
831
00:46:19,785 --> 00:46:22,387
only when she published
The Bluest Eye.
832
00:46:24,222 --> 00:46:26,457
And of course,
since she was a colleague,
833
00:46:26,925 --> 00:46:28,526
I was quick to read it.
834
00:46:29,194 --> 00:46:31,096
I thought it was just wonderful.
835
00:46:32,430 --> 00:46:34,432
And after
the impression it made,
836
00:46:34,933 --> 00:46:38,336
the then head of the overall
Random House, Bob Bernstein,
837
00:46:38,469 --> 00:46:40,171
quite wisely said,
838
00:46:40,305 --> 00:46:42,941
"We have this wonderful writer
who works for us,
839
00:46:43,074 --> 00:46:47,145
we should be publishing her."
But it couldn't be Little Random
840
00:46:47,278 --> 00:46:48,479
because she was working there,
841
00:46:48,847 --> 00:46:51,582
so Knopf,
which was the more literary arm,
842
00:46:51,917 --> 00:46:53,919
was the obvious place
and I was the chief editor
843
00:46:54,052 --> 00:46:57,388
and it was a natural meeting
because we knew each other.
844
00:46:58,757 --> 00:47:00,726
And with the exception
of one novel
845
00:47:00,859 --> 00:47:03,228
I've edited
all of her books since.
846
00:47:06,364 --> 00:47:08,133
He's the best editor there is
847
00:47:08,399 --> 00:47:10,936
and Knopf was like
this very special...
848
00:47:11,636 --> 00:47:14,172
house.
So I had the great fortune
849
00:47:14,740 --> 00:47:20,645
of being upstairs
with an editor, as an author,
850
00:47:21,246 --> 00:47:22,748
and downstairs as an editor.
851
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:29,955
And I did both well
852
00:47:30,221 --> 00:47:31,957
because I could make
the distinction.
853
00:47:32,090 --> 00:47:33,391
The assumption is,
when you edit
854
00:47:33,524 --> 00:47:35,894
somebody else's book,
you put your own stuff.
855
00:47:36,327 --> 00:47:37,595
I had that separation
856
00:47:37,729 --> 00:47:39,798
because I was a teacher
for so long.
857
00:47:41,232 --> 00:47:42,868
You're looking
at student's work.
858
00:47:43,101 --> 00:47:44,369
It's not yours.
859
00:47:44,770 --> 00:47:47,705
You make the distinction
between the two crafts.
860
00:47:48,539 --> 00:47:49,741
And I was good at that.
861
00:47:54,045 --> 00:47:57,148
Walter: I heard two people
talking about Toni once.
862
00:47:58,283 --> 00:47:59,785
The first one said...
863
00:48:00,418 --> 00:48:05,190
"I love Toni Morrison
because her novels
864
00:48:05,791 --> 00:48:08,326
transcend race."
865
00:48:10,428 --> 00:48:12,363
And then
the next person said...
866
00:48:13,398 --> 00:48:14,833
"I love Toni Morrison
867
00:48:15,166 --> 00:48:17,102
because she's not afraid
to be black."
868
00:48:17,568 --> 00:48:20,371
And the room broke out
into, like, applause.
869
00:48:20,571 --> 00:48:23,709
It was the most amazing,
kind of, experience.
870
00:48:31,917 --> 00:48:34,019
Paula: The Civil Rights
movement had morphed
871
00:48:34,419 --> 00:48:36,521
into the Black Power movement.
872
00:48:39,457 --> 00:48:42,193
So it was a period of lots
of confrontation.
873
00:48:43,094 --> 00:48:46,697
Of lots of rethinking
what race meant.
874
00:48:47,598 --> 00:48:49,067
What the relationship
of race
875
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:50,802
was to the country
and to the state.
876
00:48:54,539 --> 00:48:57,142
Important black leaders
were also emerging
877
00:48:57,442 --> 00:48:59,911
and talking about
a very different way
878
00:49:00,045 --> 00:49:02,513
of thinking about protest...
879
00:49:03,581 --> 00:49:06,451
and thinking about
changing the country.
880
00:49:07,652 --> 00:49:10,956
It was an extraordinary time,
a very heady time.
881
00:49:11,656 --> 00:49:14,425
Lots of people
were beginning to publish.
882
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,263
The Black Power movement was
really very centered on men.
883
00:49:18,730 --> 00:49:20,231
The predominantly
white women's movement
884
00:49:20,365 --> 00:49:21,632
was very centered
on white women
885
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,201
and there was always
this question
886
00:49:23,568 --> 00:49:26,337
about where black women
and women of color, in general,
887
00:49:26,471 --> 00:49:28,907
belonged in this period.
888
00:49:36,014 --> 00:49:37,883
Hilton: I think that
her profound contribution
889
00:49:38,016 --> 00:49:41,486
to American publishing
has everything to do with
890
00:49:41,619 --> 00:49:43,554
the voices
that she brought into
891
00:49:43,989 --> 00:49:45,957
a largely white institution.
892
00:49:46,324 --> 00:49:48,393
Gayl Jones, Lucille Clifton,
893
00:49:48,559 --> 00:49:51,296
Toni Cade Bambara,
Angela Davis.
894
00:49:51,763 --> 00:49:54,432
These were all her writers.
895
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:58,403
She as an editor said,
it doesn't have to be this way.
896
00:49:58,603 --> 00:50:00,438
Let's break down
the ivory tower walls
897
00:50:00,638 --> 00:50:03,108
and get
all these people together
898
00:50:03,308 --> 00:50:05,510
and make
a kind of wave of literature.
899
00:50:05,711 --> 00:50:09,414
♪ The road to have... ♪
900
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,383
♪ No more brothers and... ♪
901
00:50:12,617 --> 00:50:14,119
Farah:
I've heard her say,
902
00:50:14,319 --> 00:50:17,856
"That I'm not out on the street
in the trenches.
903
00:50:18,089 --> 00:50:21,492
I'm not marching.
What can I do where I am."
904
00:50:21,626 --> 00:50:24,662
There's the lesson, right?
What can you do where you are?
905
00:50:26,064 --> 00:50:28,366
So where I am is,
I'm an editor.
906
00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:31,402
Toni: I thought it was important
907
00:50:31,536 --> 00:50:34,239
for people to
be in the streets.
908
00:50:35,273 --> 00:50:37,843
But they couldn't last.
909
00:50:39,044 --> 00:50:40,611
You needed a record.
910
00:50:41,612 --> 00:50:45,784
It would be my job
to publish the voices,
911
00:50:46,017 --> 00:50:50,021
the books, the ideas
of African-Americans
912
00:50:50,155 --> 00:50:51,689
and that would last.
913
00:50:52,791 --> 00:50:56,194
Angela: She approached me
914
00:50:56,327 --> 00:50:57,829
on behalf of Random House
915
00:50:57,963 --> 00:51:02,500
with the proposition
of writing an autobiography
916
00:51:02,700 --> 00:51:05,336
which I must say
I thought at that point
917
00:51:05,503 --> 00:51:07,105
was rather preposterous.
918
00:51:07,272 --> 00:51:10,308
Who writes an autobiography
at 28?
919
00:51:11,109 --> 00:51:14,312
man: In America supporters of
the Black Liberation movements
920
00:51:14,445 --> 00:51:15,747
are stepping up the pressure
921
00:51:15,881 --> 00:51:18,049
in the campaign to free
Angela Davis,
922
00:51:18,249 --> 00:51:20,585
the black philosophy lecturer
and communist
923
00:51:20,819 --> 00:51:23,688
who is now facing a charge
of murder in California.
924
00:51:24,489 --> 00:51:28,659
Angela: Toni Morrison
can be extremely persuasive.
925
00:51:28,827 --> 00:51:32,097
She finally persuaded me
that the book
926
00:51:32,263 --> 00:51:36,868
she wanted to publish
was the book I wanted to write,
927
00:51:37,035 --> 00:51:39,905
only I was not aware of it
at that time.
928
00:51:41,072 --> 00:51:44,175
I learned about the importance
of the imagination from her
929
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:47,445
in ways that were
radically different.
930
00:51:50,148 --> 00:51:52,951
She would look at something
that I had written
931
00:51:53,418 --> 00:51:58,023
and she would try to help me
make it more evocative,
932
00:51:58,189 --> 00:52:00,425
than simply analytical.
933
00:52:05,797 --> 00:52:07,665
She would ask questions,
like, you know,
934
00:52:07,833 --> 00:52:10,869
where were you?
What was in the room?
935
00:52:11,002 --> 00:52:14,005
What was the furniture?
What colors were there?
936
00:52:14,639 --> 00:52:16,574
How did you feel?
937
00:52:17,508 --> 00:52:18,710
What did it smell like?
938
00:52:19,344 --> 00:52:24,149
And so she helped me
access my imagination
939
00:52:24,315 --> 00:52:28,619
in ways that I continue
to be thankful for today.
940
00:52:41,099 --> 00:52:43,168
Farah: She edits them.
She does the marketing.
941
00:52:43,301 --> 00:52:44,535
She picks the covers.
942
00:52:44,970 --> 00:52:49,340
She's taking care of her writers
in a kind of old fashioned way.
943
00:52:50,308 --> 00:52:53,144
Hilton: She's the architect
and the midwife...
944
00:52:54,145 --> 00:52:55,280
and the artist.
945
00:52:55,947 --> 00:52:57,749
She's arranging
Angela Davis's books
946
00:52:57,983 --> 00:53:01,152
on a table, she's got
a little beret, a silver beret,
947
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:02,821
and she's the editor.
948
00:53:03,321 --> 00:53:05,924
Angela's the star
and she's the editor...
949
00:53:07,192 --> 00:53:08,927
sitting back
lighting a cigarette
950
00:53:09,060 --> 00:53:13,131
watching Angela Davis
be Angela for the camera.
951
00:53:13,765 --> 00:53:16,835
That was her job
and she was doing her job.
952
00:53:18,336 --> 00:53:21,572
I think that
because success came to her
953
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,776
relatively late,
she was a grown up.
954
00:53:26,544 --> 00:53:28,613
Fran: When I first knew Toni
she was still working
955
00:53:28,747 --> 00:53:30,248
at Random House as an editor.
956
00:53:30,515 --> 00:53:31,917
But my editor called and said,
957
00:53:32,117 --> 00:53:33,919
"I got a phone call
from Bob Bernstein.
958
00:53:34,119 --> 00:53:37,322
You have to stop hanging around
in Toni Morrison's office.
959
00:53:37,455 --> 00:53:38,890
She's not getting work done.
960
00:53:39,024 --> 00:53:40,792
You're all day long,
smoking cigarettes, talking."
961
00:53:44,162 --> 00:53:47,165
Toni went on a book tour
with Muhammad Ali.
962
00:53:48,599 --> 00:53:50,701
Toni published
Muhammad Ali's book.
963
00:53:51,269 --> 00:53:53,204
Editor:
There has been a first printing
964
00:53:53,404 --> 00:53:54,840
of 100,000 copies
965
00:53:55,340 --> 00:53:57,442
and there is about to be
a second printing
966
00:53:57,642 --> 00:54:00,245
of 25,000 copies
and it is a month
967
00:54:00,378 --> 00:54:02,914
- before publication.
- Toni: When I first met him
968
00:54:03,081 --> 00:54:05,516
and I would ask him a question
he would answer
969
00:54:05,683 --> 00:54:06,985
and look at a man,
970
00:54:07,552 --> 00:54:09,287
and never look directly at me...
971
00:54:10,021 --> 00:54:12,523
while he was giving the answer.
972
00:54:13,925 --> 00:54:17,295
But then I remembered
he respects older women.
973
00:54:17,929 --> 00:54:19,164
He's not answering me
974
00:54:19,330 --> 00:54:20,999
because I'm in this other category.
975
00:54:21,399 --> 00:54:25,203
But if I'm like his mother
or an older woman,
976
00:54:25,971 --> 00:54:29,307
so I just crossed my arms.
So I walk in the room and say,
977
00:54:29,540 --> 00:54:31,409
"Ali, get up from there.
978
00:54:32,243 --> 00:54:35,013
You have something to do."
And he would look up
979
00:54:35,313 --> 00:54:37,615
and recognize another thing...
980
00:54:38,316 --> 00:54:42,520
a grown up,
an older version of the...
981
00:54:43,488 --> 00:54:44,655
girl.
982
00:54:45,957 --> 00:54:48,659
And from then on,
he did everything I said.
983
00:54:50,762 --> 00:54:52,263
You know,
everybody liked those jokes,
984
00:54:52,397 --> 00:54:57,002
but inside was this
completely understanding man.
985
00:54:57,635 --> 00:54:59,871
Loving man, nice man.
986
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,683
Toni:
Navigating a white male world
987
00:55:12,984 --> 00:55:16,154
was not threatening.
It wasn't even interesting.
988
00:55:17,555 --> 00:55:20,125
I was more interesting
than they were.
989
00:55:20,591 --> 00:55:22,693
I knew more than they did.
990
00:55:23,328 --> 00:55:25,063
And I wasn't afraid to show it.
991
00:55:27,632 --> 00:55:29,134
You have to be a little tough
992
00:55:29,634 --> 00:55:31,236
and rely on yourself...
993
00:55:31,770 --> 00:55:33,271
and tell people no.
994
00:55:34,005 --> 00:55:36,607
You don't want to give me the
money because I'm a woman...
995
00:55:36,775 --> 00:55:38,777
and the men get more?
996
00:55:39,610 --> 00:55:40,812
No.
997
00:55:45,583 --> 00:55:49,620
The first job I had
in publishing, L. W. Singer...
998
00:55:50,255 --> 00:55:53,391
I noticed that the men
in the company
999
00:55:53,825 --> 00:55:55,326
got more money
1000
00:55:55,894 --> 00:55:59,731
when the raises
were doled out than I did.
1001
00:56:03,068 --> 00:56:05,303
So I went to my boss.
1002
00:56:06,938 --> 00:56:08,406
And I said,
"You didn't raise me
1003
00:56:08,573 --> 00:56:10,776
as much as you did
my colleagues who are men."
1004
00:56:11,342 --> 00:56:13,078
And he said, "Yes, but."
And I said, "No,
1005
00:56:13,211 --> 00:56:15,413
I don't want to hear but.
I want to tell you something.
1006
00:56:15,646 --> 00:56:21,286
I am head of household,
just like you.
1007
00:56:26,024 --> 00:56:30,595
You may think I'm colored
or a woman or this,
1008
00:56:30,762 --> 00:56:36,367
I'm head of household,
just like you."
1009
00:56:37,803 --> 00:56:39,604
Yes, I got the raise.
1010
00:56:46,211 --> 00:56:49,147
Charlie:
You raised your two kids.
1011
00:56:49,647 --> 00:56:51,116
Your husband left
1012
00:56:51,282 --> 00:56:54,920
and you had to raise your
own two sons, right?
1013
00:56:55,653 --> 00:56:56,888
It was terrible.
1014
00:56:57,022 --> 00:56:58,289
- Charlie: It was?
- It was very hard.
1015
00:56:58,724 --> 00:56:59,858
Awful.
1016
00:57:00,125 --> 00:57:01,592
And so what did you call on
to get it done?
1017
00:57:01,727 --> 00:57:02,828
My family.
1018
00:57:03,394 --> 00:57:06,832
My brothers, my mother,
my grandfather, my sisters.
1019
00:57:07,032 --> 00:57:08,900
You need everybody you know.
1020
00:57:10,101 --> 00:57:13,104
I lived in New York.
I was working as an editor.
1021
00:57:13,271 --> 00:57:15,706
I was running up and back
and forth to Yale teaching.
1022
00:57:16,041 --> 00:57:18,343
So I had to send them home
in the summer.
1023
00:57:19,110 --> 00:57:20,946
My family had to come.
1024
00:57:21,579 --> 00:57:23,081
And even so...
1025
00:57:24,182 --> 00:57:27,018
it was difficult.
1026
00:57:28,954 --> 00:57:30,722
Fran: Toni wrote a lot
of these books
1027
00:57:30,889 --> 00:57:33,058
with two little boys
in the house.
1028
00:57:33,324 --> 00:57:36,294
And plus Toni had a rule
that she made for herself,
1029
00:57:36,561 --> 00:57:37,628
not to shut the door.
1030
00:57:38,163 --> 00:57:40,198
where she was working,
so that the boys
1031
00:57:40,431 --> 00:57:44,169
would not feel they were
not allowed to go in.
1032
00:57:47,272 --> 00:57:50,175
Angela: She was working
on Song of Solomon
1033
00:57:50,575 --> 00:57:52,978
and Sula had just
recently been published.
1034
00:57:53,611 --> 00:57:55,881
She would cook breakfast
for the children.
1035
00:57:56,047 --> 00:57:58,083
And then suddenly
she would turn away
1036
00:57:58,216 --> 00:58:01,686
and pick up a pen
and jot something down.
1037
00:58:02,754 --> 00:58:07,392
And often I rode with her
to her office at Random House.
1038
00:58:08,059 --> 00:58:11,429
We would be driving
into New York City.
1039
00:58:12,497 --> 00:58:15,100
The traffic would stop
at the bridge.
1040
00:58:15,233 --> 00:58:18,303
She would pick up a pen
again in the car
1041
00:58:18,503 --> 00:58:21,239
and place a piece of paper
on the steering wheel
1042
00:58:21,439 --> 00:58:22,774
and jot something down.
1043
00:58:23,809 --> 00:58:25,911
And she was constantly
doing this.
1044
00:58:28,013 --> 00:58:30,081
Later when I read
Song of Solomon,
1045
00:58:30,215 --> 00:58:32,683
I said, "That was a miracle."
1046
00:58:33,819 --> 00:58:36,354
Hilton: I don't know where
this woman's energy came from,
1047
00:58:36,621 --> 00:58:37,789
to raise two kids,
1048
00:58:38,089 --> 00:58:40,125
to bring other people of color
to the party,
1049
00:58:40,258 --> 00:58:41,659
and also write these novels.
1050
00:58:41,793 --> 00:58:43,128
She said,
"It's not as if I'm doing
1051
00:58:43,294 --> 00:58:45,030
a lot of different things.
I'm doing one thing,
1052
00:58:45,163 --> 00:58:48,199
which is I teach books,
I write books, I edit books."
1053
00:58:48,599 --> 00:58:50,701
And I think that
if you can think of it that way,
1054
00:58:50,836 --> 00:58:52,971
it's a lot more manageable.
1055
00:58:54,605 --> 00:58:56,707
Toni: I remember sitting
in my office
1056
00:58:57,108 --> 00:59:00,078
at Random House with a pad...
1057
00:59:00,946 --> 00:59:02,914
and I wrote down
on the left side
1058
00:59:03,081 --> 00:59:04,682
everything I had to do.
1059
00:59:05,050 --> 00:59:07,919
Mother your children,
go to the store,
1060
00:59:08,053 --> 00:59:10,621
pay the bills,
edit this, write this,
1061
00:59:10,756 --> 00:59:12,290
and it covered the page.
1062
00:59:12,758 --> 00:59:13,892
And then I said,
1063
00:59:14,292 --> 00:59:18,730
"Of that number,
what do you have to do?"
1064
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:21,066
And there were only
two things...
1065
00:59:21,933 --> 00:59:23,468
mother my children
1066
00:59:24,269 --> 00:59:25,170
and write.
1067
00:59:25,603 --> 00:59:28,206
And anything that
didn't do that, I struck out.
1068
00:59:31,309 --> 00:59:33,544
man: You see that a title
is not selling,
1069
00:59:33,678 --> 00:59:35,513
You get rid of it.
If it is selling,
1070
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,682
you order more.
And you learn your clientele,
1071
00:59:37,816 --> 00:59:40,185
You learn the past
sales history of a book.
1072
00:59:40,752 --> 00:59:43,822
Toni: I do remember
sitting in a sales conference.
1073
00:59:44,222 --> 00:59:47,158
One of the salesman says
we can't sell...
1074
00:59:47,658 --> 00:59:50,028
certain books on both sides
of the street,
1075
00:59:50,428 --> 00:59:53,031
meaning there's an audience
of white people
1076
00:59:53,164 --> 00:59:55,666
and maybe an audience
of black people.
1077
00:59:56,101 --> 00:59:57,602
But, they don't merge.
1078
00:59:57,736 --> 00:59:59,437
So I thought,
"Well, I will just solve that
1079
00:59:59,570 --> 01:00:02,007
and I will do something
that everybody loves,
1080
01:00:02,340 --> 01:00:04,509
particularly black people."
1081
01:00:05,443 --> 01:00:08,714
Hilton: The Black Book
is a radical book
1082
01:00:09,014 --> 01:00:10,515
because she's not giving us
1083
01:00:10,648 --> 01:00:13,118
any contextualization
for blackness
1084
01:00:13,451 --> 01:00:14,519
It just is.
1085
01:00:18,689 --> 01:00:21,359
You open the book
and it's photographs
1086
01:00:21,492 --> 01:00:26,497
of Negro memorabilia,
sculptures from the continent,
1087
01:00:26,898 --> 01:00:28,466
black cowboys...
1088
01:00:29,801 --> 01:00:31,069
sheet music...
1089
01:00:32,838 --> 01:00:34,439
racist sheet music.
1090
01:00:35,206 --> 01:00:38,609
It's the jumble
that is Black-American life.
1091
01:00:43,681 --> 01:00:48,153
There was no singular narrative.
It was everything.
1092
01:00:53,524 --> 01:00:55,660
Farah:
She gives us an archive.
1093
01:00:56,527 --> 01:00:58,296
There it is.
There are the documents.
1094
01:00:58,429 --> 01:01:00,165
You know this is from a people
who have been told
1095
01:01:00,331 --> 01:01:02,400
they don't have a history.
Well here it is.
1096
01:01:03,601 --> 01:01:05,370
It's, sort of,
like before there was
1097
01:01:05,503 --> 01:01:08,239
an African-American museum...
...here it is.
1098
01:01:10,275 --> 01:01:14,079
It is a study of the emotional
and survival
1099
01:01:14,279 --> 01:01:16,281
aspects of blackness.
1100
01:01:17,816 --> 01:01:19,484
It reminds me of who I am.
1101
01:01:22,487 --> 01:01:25,891
Toni: I had a brother who spent
about a year in prison.
1102
01:01:26,024 --> 01:01:30,328
And I asked him some questions
about language, prison language.
1103
01:01:30,561 --> 01:01:32,764
And he wrote me back
and I put it in the book.
1104
01:01:32,998 --> 01:01:34,833
My aunt wrote a piece. You know,
1105
01:01:35,100 --> 01:01:37,368
My mother's face
is on the cover.
1106
01:01:40,739 --> 01:01:42,073
It sold like wildfire.
1107
01:01:42,407 --> 01:01:45,343
And there were wonderful
wonderful responses.
1108
01:01:46,745 --> 01:01:50,148
Well, I sent books out to
people in places that
1109
01:01:50,348 --> 01:01:53,919
salesmen wouldn't know.
And I sent one to somebody's...
1110
01:01:54,419 --> 01:01:57,188
cousin or something
who was in prison.
1111
01:01:58,089 --> 01:02:00,558
And he, wrote me a letter
1112
01:02:01,259 --> 01:02:04,329
and thanked me and asked
for two more copies.
1113
01:02:04,930 --> 01:02:09,167
He said, I need one
to throw up against the wall.
1114
01:02:09,968 --> 01:02:11,436
I need one...
1115
01:02:12,103 --> 01:02:13,571
to give to a friend.
1116
01:02:15,706 --> 01:02:19,978
And I just want to hold
this one against my heart."
1117
01:02:26,051 --> 01:02:29,721
My father thought that all
white people were unredeemable.
1118
01:02:30,822 --> 01:02:31,723
Lost.
1119
01:02:32,290 --> 01:02:33,691
There's nothing you can do
about it.
1120
01:02:33,825 --> 01:02:35,660
They will always be awful.
1121
01:02:49,140 --> 01:02:51,376
They would never be human, ever.
1122
01:02:51,676 --> 01:02:54,012
Mind you, this is a guy
who as a kid,
1123
01:02:54,279 --> 01:02:57,248
saw two black men get lynched.
1124
01:03:04,589 --> 01:03:05,656
As a kid.
1125
01:03:07,859 --> 01:03:09,160
Two businessmen.
1126
01:03:11,229 --> 01:03:13,531
Hanging, you know.
So that's when he left,
1127
01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:16,034
Georgia.
1128
01:03:21,873 --> 01:03:24,042
He wouldn't let white people
in the house.
1129
01:03:25,276 --> 01:03:27,145
Like the people who come
and sell you insurance
1130
01:03:27,278 --> 01:03:29,180
and should be there.
But if a white person
1131
01:03:29,314 --> 01:03:32,183
knocked on the door
and wanted to sell something?
1132
01:03:32,550 --> 01:03:33,484
Uh-uh.
1133
01:03:35,553 --> 01:03:37,588
My mother would open the door
and chat,
1134
01:03:37,923 --> 01:03:39,324
give them something to eat.
1135
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:43,328
My father, no.
1136
01:03:44,595 --> 01:03:46,631
She judged people
one at a time.
1137
01:03:46,765 --> 01:03:48,299
She didn't care what color
they were,
1138
01:03:48,433 --> 01:03:50,268
it was a personal thing for her.
1139
01:03:52,303 --> 01:03:53,571
And then there's this...
1140
01:03:54,339 --> 01:03:55,974
strong memory I have.
1141
01:03:56,474 --> 01:03:58,376
I was trying to describe
1142
01:03:58,509 --> 01:04:00,278
something that happened
in a book I wrote
1143
01:04:00,411 --> 01:04:01,679
called Paradise,
1144
01:04:01,947 --> 01:04:04,850
where there is this
pure black community
1145
01:04:05,316 --> 01:04:07,185
versus everybody else.
1146
01:04:08,219 --> 01:04:10,121
Part of the purity and the power
1147
01:04:10,355 --> 01:04:13,992
and very much the pride
of that black community
1148
01:04:14,492 --> 01:04:16,895
is a kind of a flowering
of something
1149
01:04:17,028 --> 01:04:18,529
my great grandmother said.
1150
01:04:19,297 --> 01:04:22,367
She was a midwife
in Flint, Michigan.
1151
01:04:23,401 --> 01:04:25,737
She came to town.
1152
01:04:26,604 --> 01:04:29,908
She walked into the room
and all the men stood up.
1153
01:04:30,608 --> 01:04:33,678
And my sister and I
were on the floor playing.
1154
01:04:33,979 --> 01:04:35,446
My mother was in the room...
1155
01:04:36,147 --> 01:04:39,084
and my great grandmother came
into the room with her stick.
1156
01:04:39,350 --> 01:04:41,953
She looked down at me
and my sister...
1157
01:04:43,121 --> 01:04:47,292
and she said, "These children
have been tampered with."
1158
01:04:48,860 --> 01:04:51,529
So I didn't quite know
what that meant at the time.
1159
01:04:52,497 --> 01:04:56,201
It did not please my mother.
But she, was pitch black.
1160
01:04:56,802 --> 01:04:59,738
I mean really what they used
to call blue black.
1161
01:05:01,072 --> 01:05:05,143
And she was saying that
we were sullied in some way,
1162
01:05:05,811 --> 01:05:08,880
that we were... impure.
1163
01:05:10,381 --> 01:05:12,417
That's what she said.
1164
01:05:22,761 --> 01:05:23,795
Two fountains?
1165
01:05:25,163 --> 01:05:26,898
In a sense,
I know it wasn't true
1166
01:05:27,032 --> 01:05:30,168
but in the back of my mind
I thought the segregation
1167
01:05:30,335 --> 01:05:34,605
and the physical stuff
was a... a joke.
1168
01:05:43,048 --> 01:05:49,287
Toni: Middle class white people
were bathed by black people.
1169
01:05:50,421 --> 01:05:52,023
You know, in their tubs.
1170
01:05:52,457 --> 01:05:54,125
And they ate their food.
1171
01:05:54,325 --> 01:05:56,862
They did everything and then
they couldn't sit next to them?
1172
01:05:57,128 --> 01:06:01,699
I mean,
it just seemed so bizarre.
1173
01:06:03,101 --> 01:06:04,635
True, but bizarre.
1174
01:06:07,005 --> 01:06:09,775
Particularly for me
who had come from
1175
01:06:09,941 --> 01:06:11,042
a little town,
1176
01:06:11,509 --> 01:06:15,346
in Ohio
where everybody that I knew,
1177
01:06:15,580 --> 01:06:19,217
shopped with, played with,
was on a street
1178
01:06:19,350 --> 01:06:21,686
or in a playground
or in a school
1179
01:06:22,220 --> 01:06:24,756
full of people who came from
all over the place.
1180
01:06:25,156 --> 01:06:26,524
There were Mexicans.
1181
01:06:27,058 --> 01:06:29,127
There were tons of Italians.
1182
01:06:29,795 --> 01:06:32,097
You know,
it was really a melting pot.
1183
01:06:32,297 --> 01:06:33,498
It really was.
1184
01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:37,035
It was so integrated,
1185
01:06:37,402 --> 01:06:38,870
whenever any shop opened
1186
01:06:39,204 --> 01:06:42,407
my uncle or my mother would be
in there the first day,
1187
01:06:42,874 --> 01:06:48,079
sitting down to make sure
there was no unspoken
1188
01:06:48,413 --> 01:06:50,916
but really real segregation.
1189
01:06:51,049 --> 01:06:55,053
And nobody ever said to them,
leave, ever, no one.
1190
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:56,421
Never heard of that.
1191
01:06:56,654 --> 01:06:59,324
So when I went to Howard,
I was stunned.
1192
01:06:59,490 --> 01:07:01,292
The black students...
1193
01:07:02,227 --> 01:07:03,895
segregated themselves.
1194
01:07:04,830 --> 01:07:07,733
I joined a sorority
because they asked me
1195
01:07:07,866 --> 01:07:09,768
and they looked nice,
but I didn't know
1196
01:07:09,901 --> 01:07:12,403
it was the sorority where
the light skinned
1197
01:07:12,804 --> 01:07:15,173
girls went. And then there was
another sorority
1198
01:07:15,306 --> 01:07:16,574
that was all black,
1199
01:07:16,842 --> 01:07:17,809
shades of color.
1200
01:07:20,345 --> 01:07:24,249
It was a very horrible
social scheme.
1201
01:07:26,384 --> 01:07:29,120
Stunned me. I didn't know
what they were talking about,
1202
01:07:29,420 --> 01:07:33,358
because if you got on a bus
you could see colored, white.
1203
01:07:33,959 --> 01:07:37,428
And I would steal those signs
and send them home to my mother.
1204
01:07:38,529 --> 01:07:40,932
And there was one
department store
1205
01:07:41,399 --> 01:07:43,001
where you could go
to the bathroom.
1206
01:07:43,769 --> 01:07:46,237
And we all knew what it was.
But all the rest
1207
01:07:46,371 --> 01:07:47,839
they wouldn't let you go
to the bathroom,
1208
01:07:47,973 --> 01:07:48,940
if you were black...
1209
01:07:49,540 --> 01:07:50,842
or colored.
1210
01:07:52,778 --> 01:07:57,348
I remember being compared
to Ishmael Reed
1211
01:07:57,983 --> 01:07:59,284
and Gayl Jones...
1212
01:08:00,051 --> 01:08:02,921
three writers
who are so different...
1213
01:08:03,722 --> 01:08:06,892
and the reviewer
ended up deciding
1214
01:08:07,058 --> 01:08:10,796
which one of us
was more accurate
1215
01:08:11,362 --> 01:08:12,798
about black life.
1216
01:08:13,364 --> 01:08:15,500
And I was not the one
that she chose.
1217
01:08:15,633 --> 01:08:18,003
I think she chose Gayl.
1218
01:08:19,270 --> 01:08:21,840
This is the real black scene.
1219
01:08:22,273 --> 01:08:26,778
This is the real black
middle class or lower class.
1220
01:08:27,578 --> 01:08:29,981
That's not a literary observation...
1221
01:08:30,581 --> 01:08:33,584
at all. It's not a literary
point of view.
1222
01:08:34,419 --> 01:08:36,321
And I think over time
it has changed.
1223
01:08:36,822 --> 01:08:38,924
It was really awful
in the beginning,
1224
01:08:39,057 --> 01:08:42,027
I have to tell you
but it's getting better.
1225
01:08:44,830 --> 01:08:49,467
There were those who wanted
to ghetto-ize her work.
1226
01:08:50,802 --> 01:08:53,271
The argument
has always been that black art
1227
01:08:53,404 --> 01:08:54,973
is a particular art.
1228
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:57,575
The particularity of black art
1229
01:08:57,743 --> 01:09:01,913
has nothing to do with
larger concerns of humanity.
1230
01:09:02,480 --> 01:09:04,449
Humanity has to be
colored white.
1231
01:09:05,216 --> 01:09:09,821
And so here was a work that
was about the particularity,
1232
01:09:09,988 --> 01:09:12,824
the specificity
of black experience
1233
01:09:13,058 --> 01:09:16,194
but at the same time
there was no question
1234
01:09:16,461 --> 01:09:19,397
regarding the
universal meaning.
1235
01:09:20,065 --> 01:09:23,301
So her work
completely destroyed
1236
01:09:23,501 --> 01:09:26,271
the binary notion
of black writers
1237
01:09:26,437 --> 01:09:30,208
being either black writers
writing for black communities
1238
01:09:30,341 --> 01:09:31,843
about black subjects
1239
01:09:32,110 --> 01:09:35,413
or black writers
being post racial.
1240
01:09:38,817 --> 01:09:41,586
Sonia: You've gotta posit it
in the times.
1241
01:09:42,754 --> 01:09:45,023
People knew Toni Morrison
was writing.
1242
01:09:45,256 --> 01:09:47,759
They didn't know what to do
with what she was writing about.
1243
01:09:47,926 --> 01:09:49,961
Is this relevant. Right, uh,
1244
01:09:50,128 --> 01:09:52,630
she's writing about black people
maybe it's not relevant.
1245
01:09:52,798 --> 01:09:54,800
Then people began to buy
Toni Morrison.
1246
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,803
And people began to talk
about her overseas, mind you.
1247
01:09:58,003 --> 01:10:01,072
And then we began to teach her
in the university, also, too.
1248
01:10:01,272 --> 01:10:03,909
And as a consequence
they had to pay attention.
1249
01:10:06,011 --> 01:10:07,445
David:
I was coming up on the train
1250
01:10:07,578 --> 01:10:09,047
from Princeton to New York.
1251
01:10:09,447 --> 01:10:10,782
And I had Sula with me.
1252
01:10:11,182 --> 01:10:15,186
I went up to the cafe car
and there was a line.
1253
01:10:15,787 --> 01:10:17,422
And I happened to be behind
1254
01:10:17,723 --> 01:10:19,825
an elderly
African-American woman.
1255
01:10:20,759 --> 01:10:23,394
I don't know what led me
to do this but I decided
1256
01:10:23,729 --> 01:10:26,798
I was gonna, sort of,
flash my Sula at her,
1257
01:10:27,132 --> 01:10:29,434
just to see if we could start
a conversation.
1258
01:10:29,968 --> 01:10:32,103
I mean I didn't hold it up
but I just, kind of,
1259
01:10:32,237 --> 01:10:33,604
made it available.
1260
01:10:33,772 --> 01:10:35,273
And she looked over at me...
I'll never forget this.
1261
01:10:35,406 --> 01:10:36,507
She looked over at me,
1262
01:10:36,908 --> 01:10:38,643
she looked back at her bag,
1263
01:10:38,777 --> 01:10:40,378
she looked at me again
and she opened her bag
1264
01:10:40,545 --> 01:10:41,813
and pulled out Song of Solomon.
1265
01:10:44,983 --> 01:10:46,684
She trumped me
with Song of Solomon.
1266
01:10:46,952 --> 01:10:48,186
And I said,
"You're reading Toni, too?"
1267
01:10:48,353 --> 01:10:50,388
And she said, "Oh yes."
she said, "You know,
1268
01:10:50,521 --> 01:10:52,858
this is very difficult to read,"
1269
01:10:53,091 --> 01:10:56,594
she said, "But for some reason
I just can't put it down."
1270
01:10:57,162 --> 01:10:58,263
I've never written
1271
01:10:58,764 --> 01:11:03,001
with a man as a main character
or two main characters,
1272
01:11:03,234 --> 01:11:05,036
but my father died...
1273
01:11:06,337 --> 01:11:10,408
and I had a very strong
negative reaction
1274
01:11:10,541 --> 01:11:12,243
to the world after he died.
1275
01:11:13,812 --> 01:11:17,148
And I wouldn't even go back
home for three years...
1276
01:11:18,283 --> 01:11:19,951
because he wasn't there.
1277
01:11:26,958 --> 01:11:30,495
And I remember sitting down
and saying I wonder...
1278
01:11:31,362 --> 01:11:32,864
what my father knew...
1279
01:11:33,598 --> 01:11:34,966
about these men.
1280
01:11:36,134 --> 01:11:38,970
But I felt comfortable
writing about them,
1281
01:11:39,237 --> 01:11:40,538
knowing about them,
1282
01:11:40,739 --> 01:11:43,574
because my father
was letting me know.
1283
01:11:44,509 --> 01:11:46,011
He was letting me know.
1284
01:11:47,278 --> 01:11:49,014
I didn't get any signs.
1285
01:11:49,547 --> 01:11:53,284
There were no little ghosts
that usually accompany me.
1286
01:11:53,985 --> 01:11:56,121
But I knew
that he would tell me...
1287
01:11:57,222 --> 01:11:58,289
if I just started.
1288
01:11:59,524 --> 01:12:01,526
I have an inside voice now.
1289
01:12:03,594 --> 01:12:05,396
Hilton:
Her canvas was getting bigger.
1290
01:12:06,031 --> 01:12:09,034
In The Bluest Eye,
she had beautifully restricted
1291
01:12:09,300 --> 01:12:12,738
the world to the universe
of young girls.
1292
01:12:13,805 --> 01:12:15,706
In Sula,
she had restricted the world
1293
01:12:15,841 --> 01:12:19,210
to the very complex
landscape of women.
1294
01:12:19,878 --> 01:12:22,848
And in Song of Solomon,
she had included both sexes
1295
01:12:23,048 --> 01:12:25,817
and the world
was just getting larger
1296
01:12:25,951 --> 01:12:28,319
because of the metaphor flying.
1297
01:12:30,021 --> 01:12:32,657
man: ♪ I got wings
You got wings ♪
1298
01:12:32,858 --> 01:12:34,993
♪ All o' Lord's children
Got wings ♪
1299
01:12:35,493 --> 01:12:38,296
♪ When I get to heaven
Gonna hitch on my wings ♪
1300
01:12:38,429 --> 01:12:39,798
♪ I'm going to fly... ♪
1301
01:12:40,131 --> 01:12:42,267
Toni: But I'd always heard
that there were Africans
1302
01:12:42,433 --> 01:12:44,469
who had been enslaved,
1303
01:12:44,702 --> 01:12:47,338
but some of them
were able to fly.
1304
01:12:48,039 --> 01:12:52,043
And they lifted up
off the ground and flew home.
1305
01:12:54,212 --> 01:12:56,247
David: The African,
the Flying African story
1306
01:12:56,381 --> 01:12:59,017
is something that is widespread
in African traditions
1307
01:12:59,184 --> 01:13:01,252
but it's all over the world.
And the idea here is that
1308
01:13:01,419 --> 01:13:04,956
human beings need to find
spiritual allies.
1309
01:13:05,190 --> 01:13:07,692
So people have developed
these dreams and these stories
1310
01:13:08,059 --> 01:13:09,795
that you can transcend
the suffering
1311
01:13:09,928 --> 01:13:11,997
of your community in flight.
1312
01:13:12,898 --> 01:13:14,332
Looking at our ancestors,
1313
01:13:14,966 --> 01:13:18,770
valuing their songs and stories,
this is one of the ways
1314
01:13:19,437 --> 01:13:21,439
that we can deal
with the terror of history.
1315
01:13:22,007 --> 01:13:23,775
And so what happens
in the novel,
1316
01:13:24,242 --> 01:13:27,946
Milkman discovers
that his ancestor flew...
1317
01:13:28,814 --> 01:13:30,882
got right up out of here
and flew.
1318
01:13:33,484 --> 01:13:34,619
"Twilight had thickened
1319
01:13:35,020 --> 01:13:37,355
and all around him
it was getting dark.
1320
01:13:38,023 --> 01:13:39,958
He knew there wouldn't be
another mistake.
1321
01:13:40,225 --> 01:13:42,193
But the minute he stood up,
Guitar would try
1322
01:13:42,327 --> 01:13:43,394
to blow his head off.
1323
01:13:44,195 --> 01:13:45,196
He stood up.
1324
01:13:45,897 --> 01:13:48,433
'Guitar!' he shouted.
1325
01:13:48,934 --> 01:13:52,570
'Guitar, tar, tar,'
said the hills.
1326
01:13:52,904 --> 01:13:55,774
'Over here, brother man.
Can you see me?'
1327
01:13:56,207 --> 01:13:57,876
Milkman cupped his mouth
with one hand
1328
01:13:58,009 --> 01:13:59,344
and waved the other
over his head.
1329
01:13:59,745 --> 01:14:04,449
'Here I am! Am, am, am,
1330
01:14:04,816 --> 01:14:07,152
said the rocks.
'You want me?
1331
01:14:07,385 --> 01:14:09,220
Huh? You want my life?
1332
01:14:09,788 --> 01:14:13,158
Life, life, life."
1333
01:14:14,459 --> 01:14:16,762
Yeah, the ending was difficult
1334
01:14:16,895 --> 01:14:20,698
I think for some readers
because it wasn't explicit.
1335
01:14:21,166 --> 01:14:24,335
These are men
who were very close,
1336
01:14:24,870 --> 01:14:26,805
and got on opposite sides
1337
01:14:27,205 --> 01:14:30,708
politically and otherwise
and became enemies.
1338
01:14:32,110 --> 01:14:35,080
One chases the other,
tracks him.
1339
01:14:35,914 --> 01:14:38,683
One of them,
who has got a gun...
1340
01:14:39,384 --> 01:14:40,852
puts the gun down.
1341
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,689
"He put the rifle on the ground
and stood up.
1342
01:14:45,323 --> 01:14:47,826
Milkman stopped waving
and narrowed his eyes.
1343
01:14:48,193 --> 01:14:49,995
He could just make out
Guitar's head and shoulders
1344
01:14:50,128 --> 01:14:52,563
in the dark.
'You want my life?'
1345
01:14:53,098 --> 01:14:57,068
Milkman was not shouting now.
'You need it? Here.'
1346
01:14:57,468 --> 01:15:00,671
Without wiping away the tears,
taking a deep breath
1347
01:15:00,939 --> 01:15:03,909
or even bending his knees,
he leaped.
1348
01:15:04,409 --> 01:15:08,479
As fleet and bright
as a lodestar,
1349
01:15:08,980 --> 01:15:12,317
he wheeled toward Guitar
and it did not matter
1350
01:15:12,450 --> 01:15:14,920
which one of them
would give up his ghost
1351
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:17,555
in the killing arms
of his brother.
1352
01:15:18,023 --> 01:15:21,326
For now he knew,
what Shalimar knew...
1353
01:15:22,127 --> 01:15:24,162
If you surrendered to the air...
1354
01:15:25,096 --> 01:15:26,497
you could ride it."
1355
01:15:29,634 --> 01:15:33,004
The friend leaps toward him...
1356
01:15:33,772 --> 01:15:35,506
and that is the flight...
1357
01:15:36,908 --> 01:15:41,212
in the arms of his brother.
1358
01:15:42,313 --> 01:15:46,451
So instead of blood spilling,
1359
01:15:46,918 --> 01:15:49,087
blood is joined.
1360
01:15:49,855 --> 01:15:51,389
Through the art of flying.
1361
01:15:52,323 --> 01:15:55,626
And I thought the writing
was extraordinary
1362
01:15:55,894 --> 01:15:58,029
and different and radical
and beautiful.
1363
01:15:58,163 --> 01:16:00,331
That's what I thought.
I did not think
1364
01:16:00,465 --> 01:16:02,033
that there would be
a lot of people
1365
01:16:02,333 --> 01:16:07,038
who would share that view.
So I was never, ever convinced
1366
01:16:07,305 --> 01:16:08,874
that I would have a wide readership.
1367
01:16:09,007 --> 01:16:10,308
And when that changed,
1368
01:16:10,441 --> 01:16:12,110
and it changed
with Song of Solomon,
1369
01:16:12,277 --> 01:16:15,246
that was a commercial success.
I was delighted.
1370
01:16:15,446 --> 01:16:19,350
And that's when I called myself
a writer. Used the label.
1371
01:16:19,851 --> 01:16:21,519
And what had preceded,
it was just...
1372
01:16:21,652 --> 01:16:23,454
that I was an ill-advised woman
1373
01:16:23,588 --> 01:16:25,857
who could not say,
like the big guys,
1374
01:16:26,091 --> 01:16:27,192
I am a writer.
1375
01:16:27,392 --> 01:16:30,095
I always said
I'm a teacher who writes
1376
01:16:30,461 --> 01:16:31,997
or an editor who writes.
1377
01:16:32,330 --> 01:16:34,232
But I never said the real thing
1378
01:16:34,565 --> 01:16:36,134
until after I'd written
a third book.
1379
01:16:36,401 --> 01:16:39,004
It's the sort of, uh, thing
that women frequently do.
1380
01:16:39,204 --> 01:16:41,706
They sort of need permission
to tell themselves
1381
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:43,208
that this is the work they do.
1382
01:16:46,611 --> 01:16:49,480
Robert: One day we were talking
and I said, "You know Toni,
1383
01:16:49,948 --> 01:16:52,017
it's time you quit your job.
1384
01:16:52,918 --> 01:16:56,021
You've got to acknowledge
to yourself
1385
01:16:56,221 --> 01:17:00,091
and say to our world
'I am a writer'.
1386
01:17:00,491 --> 01:17:04,262
I don't have the time
or psychic energy
1387
01:17:04,562 --> 01:17:05,964
to do both any longer."
1388
01:17:15,273 --> 01:17:17,508
Toni:
I began to write full-time
1389
01:17:17,675 --> 01:17:20,511
as a writer in this place.
1390
01:17:22,113 --> 01:17:23,448
I went out to the pier...
1391
01:17:24,282 --> 01:17:25,784
which is just outside.
1392
01:17:27,118 --> 01:17:31,389
And, I was sitting out there
feeling a very strange feeling.
1393
01:17:33,024 --> 01:17:36,194
I didn't know what it was.
It was, sort of, giddy.
1394
01:17:37,095 --> 01:17:39,297
And then I realized
1395
01:17:39,731 --> 01:17:41,166
that I was really happy...
1396
01:17:42,700 --> 01:17:43,701
and free.
1397
01:17:44,435 --> 01:17:47,338
And, I had never felt
that before, ever,
1398
01:17:48,106 --> 01:17:52,978
that level of intense
happiness and freedom.
1399
01:18:05,156 --> 01:18:06,992
Toni:
The big thing about my books
1400
01:18:07,125 --> 01:18:09,861
as far as the reviewers
were concerned
1401
01:18:10,295 --> 01:18:11,662
was that it was Black.
1402
01:18:12,497 --> 01:18:14,465
So they talked about that.
1403
01:18:17,068 --> 01:18:19,137
Dick: I know you'd be sick
unto death of being labeled,
1404
01:18:19,270 --> 01:18:21,172
I would think, a black writer?
1405
01:18:21,339 --> 01:18:23,975
- I like it. I prefer it.
- Dick: You don't mind it?
1406
01:18:24,109 --> 01:18:25,276
Toni: Oh, not at all.
1407
01:18:25,576 --> 01:18:26,978
Oh I'd thought
you probably were tired of it.
1408
01:18:27,345 --> 01:18:30,081
Well I'm tired of people
asking the question.
1409
01:18:30,248 --> 01:18:32,683
Oh yes, of course.
1410
01:18:33,318 --> 01:18:35,520
- That's what I meant of course.
- Toni: You know,
1411
01:18:36,121 --> 01:18:37,355
it's like being called
a French writer,
1412
01:18:37,488 --> 01:18:38,824
you know, how can you get tired?
1413
01:18:38,990 --> 01:18:40,525
Sure. Yeah.
A black woman writer,
1414
01:18:40,691 --> 01:18:43,361
- it's double with the label.
- Toni: I'm all of those things.
1415
01:18:43,494 --> 01:18:45,897
Oh, and we know it and we know
what to expect from her.
1416
01:18:46,264 --> 01:18:48,333
But sometimes it is pejorative
and people say,
1417
01:18:48,466 --> 01:18:50,335
"This is a good book
for a black writer
1418
01:18:50,535 --> 01:18:52,170
- or for, you know."
- Yeah...
1419
01:18:52,337 --> 01:18:54,005
Then, of course,
you know, you hear the...
1420
01:18:54,172 --> 01:18:56,407
- Isn't he cute for his age?
- Toni: Right.
1421
01:18:58,209 --> 01:18:59,945
Walter:
You don't wanna be a character
1422
01:19:00,078 --> 01:19:01,412
in a Toni Morrison novel
1423
01:19:01,546 --> 01:19:03,949
because she's writing
scorched earth.
1424
01:19:04,850 --> 01:19:07,719
The people take on
all the suffering,
1425
01:19:07,986 --> 01:19:10,956
which has created us
which has made us so beautiful.
1426
01:19:11,289 --> 01:19:13,224
But in order to become
that beautiful,
1427
01:19:13,558 --> 01:19:16,561
you had to go through fire
and acid
1428
01:19:16,728 --> 01:19:19,297
and people raping you
and stabbing you and,
1429
01:19:19,430 --> 01:19:23,534
sicking their dogs on you
and your mother destroying you.
1430
01:19:24,135 --> 01:19:25,837
Who would want to live
that life?
1431
01:19:26,938 --> 01:19:30,275
The life I want to live is like
a nice boring novel, you know,
1432
01:19:30,508 --> 01:19:32,243
where you live
at the bank of the river
1433
01:19:32,377 --> 01:19:35,146
and I'd do a little fishing
and then a beautiful mermaid
1434
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:37,082
comes out and, you know,
talks to me.
1435
01:19:37,215 --> 01:19:39,050
That's my novel.
If I've got to live it.
1436
01:19:39,350 --> 01:19:40,819
You know, Toni Morrison,
I'll read it,
1437
01:19:40,952 --> 01:19:42,220
but I'm not living it.
1438
01:19:49,527 --> 01:19:51,262
Toni: I saw a woman...
1439
01:19:52,097 --> 01:19:53,298
fully-dressed...
1440
01:19:54,432 --> 01:19:56,134
come out of the river...
1441
01:19:56,802 --> 01:19:58,203
in front of my house...
1442
01:19:59,337 --> 01:20:01,039
and she sat down.
1443
01:20:02,007 --> 01:20:03,274
She had on a hat.
1444
01:20:04,309 --> 01:20:07,145
And I was at my desk writing,
looking at her.
1445
01:20:08,814 --> 01:20:10,448
And she didn't look back.
1446
01:20:11,549 --> 01:20:12,984
And then she disappeared.
1447
01:20:13,351 --> 01:20:17,222
And that I knew
that that was the solution
1448
01:20:17,856 --> 01:20:19,357
to a book I was writing...
1449
01:20:20,025 --> 01:20:22,227
about a dead girl,
called Beloved.
1450
01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:44,215
Toni: The story of slavery,
1451
01:20:44,415 --> 01:20:47,418
normally is the story
of black men
1452
01:20:47,786 --> 01:20:49,220
being enslaved...
1453
01:20:50,321 --> 01:20:51,656
escaping...
1454
01:20:52,523 --> 01:20:54,092
and becoming free...
1455
01:20:55,126 --> 01:20:57,495
or dying and not becoming free.
1456
01:20:59,430 --> 01:21:03,368
That is the classic
black slave story.
1457
01:21:03,701 --> 01:21:08,807
And one thing that was not part
of the slave story,
1458
01:21:09,140 --> 01:21:13,511
was a woman.
1459
01:21:21,486 --> 01:21:23,654
Toni: I don't mean that
there were no narratives
1460
01:21:23,889 --> 01:21:25,656
that slave women told...
1461
01:21:26,457 --> 01:21:27,859
and there was no information
about it.
1462
01:21:27,993 --> 01:21:30,695
I mean it wasn't the narrative
in literature.
1463
01:21:30,996 --> 01:21:33,832
My effort in, say in, Beloved,
to do that...
1464
01:21:34,699 --> 01:21:37,903
to talk about a woman
who had to make some choices
1465
01:21:38,669 --> 01:21:40,972
about slavery,
about motherhood,
1466
01:21:41,272 --> 01:21:44,642
about love, about parenting...
1467
01:21:45,443 --> 01:21:49,314
that had nothing to do
with being a victim.
1468
01:21:50,515 --> 01:21:52,450
A real woman,
a historical figure,
1469
01:21:52,583 --> 01:21:53,885
as a matter of fact...
1470
01:21:54,585 --> 01:21:58,289
who was anything but a victim.
1471
01:21:58,924 --> 01:22:01,893
This is a woman who said,
"These children are mine.
1472
01:22:04,095 --> 01:22:05,764
I can do with them what I want."
1473
01:22:12,904 --> 01:22:16,674
Angela: When Toni Morrison
published Beloved,
1474
01:22:17,175 --> 01:22:21,179
it was an extraordinary
turning point
1475
01:22:21,612 --> 01:22:24,315
in the history of this country.
1476
01:22:24,449 --> 01:22:26,684
And, I would say
the history of the world.
1477
01:22:27,552 --> 01:22:31,823
Because she urged us to imagine
1478
01:22:32,057 --> 01:22:36,527
people who were slaves,
as human beings...
1479
01:22:37,162 --> 01:22:39,630
individuals with subjectivity...
1480
01:22:40,631 --> 01:22:44,903
who also loved,
who also had imaginations
1481
01:22:45,636 --> 01:22:47,572
even as they were subjected
1482
01:22:47,705 --> 01:22:51,409
to the most horrendous modes
of repression.
1483
01:22:53,712 --> 01:22:57,515
We can never think about
slavery in the same way.
1484
01:22:59,484 --> 01:23:00,819
Russell: Toni uses history
1485
01:23:00,952 --> 01:23:02,587
and she has a
profound understanding
1486
01:23:02,754 --> 01:23:05,656
of American history.
That's a tool for her.
1487
01:23:06,624 --> 01:23:09,194
She's first and foremost
a narrative artist,
1488
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:12,430
and uses biography,
newspaper clippings,
1489
01:23:12,563 --> 01:23:14,265
she uses whatever comes her way.
1490
01:23:14,933 --> 01:23:17,736
It is her material
that she then uses
1491
01:23:17,869 --> 01:23:21,672
in order to transform
into literary art.
1492
01:23:27,212 --> 01:23:30,515
Robert:
Beloved was a big event.
1493
01:23:31,582 --> 01:23:33,584
It sort of crystallized...
1494
01:23:34,585 --> 01:23:38,389
the past for African-Americans,
1495
01:23:39,057 --> 01:23:40,258
the worst of the past...
1496
01:23:40,959 --> 01:23:43,094
and also the strength
of the past.
1497
01:23:43,328 --> 01:23:45,030
Their heroism,
their inner heroism
1498
01:23:45,163 --> 01:23:48,934
and their abilities to survive
and prevail.
1499
01:23:49,267 --> 01:23:51,636
It's just amazing and moving.
1500
01:23:54,773 --> 01:23:58,609
Yes it does focus on a horrible
part of American history.
1501
01:23:59,410 --> 01:24:01,679
But I don't think of it
as a work of history.
1502
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,282
I think of it
as a work through which,
1503
01:24:04,582 --> 01:24:07,385
if we choose,
we can look at our history.
1504
01:24:09,087 --> 01:24:12,690
She's a realist.
She looks into the face...
1505
01:24:13,224 --> 01:24:14,793
of the historical suffering
1506
01:24:15,260 --> 01:24:19,164
of African-Americans and looks
inside of their heart and soul
1507
01:24:19,464 --> 01:24:21,733
and finds a language
to describe that.
1508
01:24:24,635 --> 01:24:26,404
Farah: She took this experience
of a people
1509
01:24:26,571 --> 01:24:28,339
who had been degraded.
1510
01:24:29,174 --> 01:24:31,676
And she showed that
this was the experience
1511
01:24:31,810 --> 01:24:34,345
of a world historic people...
1512
01:24:35,881 --> 01:24:38,316
just like the Hebrews
of the Old Testament,
1513
01:24:38,449 --> 01:24:39,718
just like the Greeks
1514
01:24:39,885 --> 01:24:42,220
that there was the same
kind of drama
1515
01:24:42,487 --> 01:24:46,925
and love and passion
and hatred there.
1516
01:24:49,728 --> 01:24:51,362
Richard: One of the things
I learned from Toni,
1517
01:24:51,496 --> 01:24:53,598
one of the things
that truly changed me,
1518
01:24:53,832 --> 01:24:59,871
she sensitized me to seeing
the story beneath the story.
1519
01:25:03,541 --> 01:25:06,044
This is the way America
has existed,
1520
01:25:06,577 --> 01:25:08,113
since its inception.
1521
01:25:08,847 --> 01:25:11,616
There is the official story,
there's the press release
1522
01:25:11,750 --> 01:25:14,385
and then there's the truth.
1523
01:25:23,261 --> 01:25:27,298
Richard: Margaret Garner
was an African-American woman
1524
01:25:27,432 --> 01:25:29,034
born into slavery
1525
01:25:29,467 --> 01:25:32,437
on a plantation
in Northern Kentucky.
1526
01:25:34,405 --> 01:25:36,574
In the 1850's
1527
01:25:36,742 --> 01:25:39,644
she crossed
the frozen Ohio River
1528
01:25:39,845 --> 01:25:42,113
hoping to find some sanctuary
1529
01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:44,783
through the underground
railroad system.
1530
01:25:46,217 --> 01:25:50,155
The plantation owner found her
after a couple of weeks
1531
01:25:50,455 --> 01:25:54,559
and rather than return compliantly,
1532
01:25:54,860 --> 01:25:58,096
she slit the throat
of her oldest child
1533
01:25:58,663 --> 01:26:00,165
and on the boat ride back,
1534
01:26:00,298 --> 01:26:03,301
tried to drown herself
and her youngest
1535
01:26:03,701 --> 01:26:06,772
and the child drowned
and she survived.
1536
01:26:08,673 --> 01:26:09,908
The arguments...
1537
01:26:10,842 --> 01:26:13,678
at her hearing had to do
with whether
1538
01:26:14,079 --> 01:26:16,748
she should be charged
with murder
1539
01:26:16,915 --> 01:26:19,684
or charged
with destruction of property.
1540
01:26:20,886 --> 01:26:23,388
Because,
if she was charged with murder,
1541
01:26:23,755 --> 01:26:25,991
the nation
would have to acknowledge
1542
01:26:26,124 --> 01:26:28,860
that she and her children
were human beings.
1543
01:26:30,762 --> 01:26:32,097
Russell:
The story behind Beloved
1544
01:26:32,230 --> 01:26:34,132
is a small little
newspaper article
1545
01:26:34,265 --> 01:26:36,968
that showed up in the
early abolitionists years
1546
01:26:37,268 --> 01:26:38,669
of Margaret Garner.
1547
01:26:39,704 --> 01:26:42,007
She just stumbled onto that
in the 70s
1548
01:26:42,140 --> 01:26:44,275
and kind of kept it
in the back of her head.
1549
01:26:45,343 --> 01:26:47,212
She said, "I didn't research it
beyond that article
1550
01:26:47,345 --> 01:26:50,716
because I didn't want to write
a book about Margaret Garner.
1551
01:26:50,882 --> 01:26:52,751
I wanted to use that incident
1552
01:26:52,918 --> 01:26:56,454
as a way to enter
into the world of a woman
1553
01:26:56,855 --> 01:26:59,690
who did something
like Margaret Garner did."
1554
01:27:01,793 --> 01:27:04,529
Toni takes that
and writes it for us.
1555
01:27:04,963 --> 01:27:06,932
So there we're all in that shed
1556
01:27:07,498 --> 01:27:09,634
in the horrible choice
that she makes
1557
01:27:09,835 --> 01:27:12,804
and it's about this choice
that the mother makes.
1558
01:27:16,707 --> 01:27:18,977
Toni: All four started
toward the shed.
1559
01:27:19,444 --> 01:27:24,582
Inside, two boys bled
in the sawdust and dirt
1560
01:27:24,883 --> 01:27:26,384
at the feet of a nigger woman
1561
01:27:26,718 --> 01:27:30,989
holding a blood-soaked child
to her chest with one hand
1562
01:27:31,356 --> 01:27:33,658
and an infant by the heels
in the other.
1563
01:27:34,592 --> 01:27:38,396
Right off it was clear,
to schoolteacher especially,
1564
01:27:38,897 --> 01:27:40,598
that there was nothing there
to claim.
1565
01:27:40,932 --> 01:27:42,934
The three, now four,
1566
01:27:43,134 --> 01:27:45,670
because she'd had the
one coming when she cut,
1567
01:27:46,004 --> 01:27:49,374
pickaninnies they had hoped
were alive and well enough
1568
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:51,342
to take back to Kentucky,
1569
01:27:51,709 --> 01:27:53,611
take back and raise properly
1570
01:27:53,945 --> 01:27:57,682
to do the work Sweet Home
desperately needed, were not.
1571
01:27:58,383 --> 01:28:01,186
Two were lying open-eyed
in the sawdust,
1572
01:28:01,652 --> 01:28:05,623
a third pumped blood
down the dress of the main one,
1573
01:28:06,257 --> 01:28:08,894
the woman schoolteacher
bragged about,
1574
01:28:09,294 --> 01:28:12,931
the one he said made fine ink,
damn good soup,
1575
01:28:13,298 --> 01:28:15,266
pressed his collars
the way he liked,
1576
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:19,437
besides having at least
ten breeding years left.
1577
01:28:20,005 --> 01:28:21,840
But now, she'd gone wild.
1578
01:28:24,142 --> 01:28:26,945
The question
in the newspaper article,
1579
01:28:27,078 --> 01:28:28,880
a reproduction of which
was in the Black Book
1580
01:28:29,014 --> 01:28:30,381
that I had published.
1581
01:28:31,082 --> 01:28:33,618
It was this big question
about what to do with her.
1582
01:28:34,319 --> 01:28:37,789
The only person who really
should answer the question
1583
01:28:38,289 --> 01:28:39,825
and would really know...
1584
01:28:40,992 --> 01:28:42,828
would be the dead daughter.
1585
01:28:44,595 --> 01:28:46,597
And she had already appeared...
1586
01:28:47,698 --> 01:28:49,034
fully dressed...
1587
01:28:50,401 --> 01:28:51,702
with a nice hat...
1588
01:28:52,670 --> 01:28:53,905
out of the water.
1589
01:28:56,041 --> 01:29:00,912
So, she behaved the way
a child would behave
1590
01:29:02,047 --> 01:29:06,051
if its mother
had to cut its throat.
1591
01:29:08,486 --> 01:29:10,255
You loved your mother.
1592
01:29:12,190 --> 01:29:13,358
You loved her,
1593
01:29:13,491 --> 01:29:15,961
but at the same time
you wanted to punish her.
1594
01:29:20,031 --> 01:29:22,033
Russell:
This is the gift of a novel.
1595
01:29:22,633 --> 01:29:27,505
No other art form allows us
to enter and thereby dignify
1596
01:29:27,672 --> 01:29:31,509
the inner life of another
human being so thoroughly,
1597
01:29:31,709 --> 01:29:33,812
allows us to experience
the inner life
1598
01:29:33,945 --> 01:29:37,048
of another human being,
the secret inner life.
1599
01:29:37,816 --> 01:29:40,618
What it is that
that person feels.
1600
01:29:40,986 --> 01:29:41,953
Not their opinions...
1601
01:29:42,721 --> 01:29:46,024
not their social conditions.
But what did that feel like
1602
01:29:46,424 --> 01:29:47,826
to be that person?
1603
01:29:48,794 --> 01:29:50,762
Beloved, for instance,
lets us feel
1604
01:29:51,062 --> 01:29:53,899
what it is like to be Sethe,
the mother.
1605
01:29:55,033 --> 01:29:57,068
It allows us
to provide that life
1606
01:29:57,235 --> 01:30:00,038
and lives like hers
with respect,
1607
01:30:00,371 --> 01:30:01,873
with dignity.
1608
01:30:03,674 --> 01:30:04,876
I just reread it
for the first time
1609
01:30:05,043 --> 01:30:06,477
since we published it.
1610
01:30:06,677 --> 01:30:09,247
And I thought, you know,
I'd like to reread Beloved.
1611
01:30:09,647 --> 01:30:12,150
I rarely reread books
I've edited
1612
01:30:12,283 --> 01:30:14,685
because I'm always afraid
I won't love them as much.
1613
01:30:14,853 --> 01:30:16,254
And, I was just...
1614
01:30:17,388 --> 01:30:20,291
struck by it all over again,
moved and horrified.
1615
01:30:20,558 --> 01:30:23,194
And as I said to Toni,
"It's not just the content,
1616
01:30:23,394 --> 01:30:26,798
so moving and strange
and complicated,
1617
01:30:27,032 --> 01:30:29,735
but also it's so brilliantly
put together.
1618
01:30:30,201 --> 01:30:33,772
Your strategies and your tactics
are just so wonderful."
1619
01:30:34,139 --> 01:30:35,306
I wish I could take credit
1620
01:30:35,440 --> 01:30:36,975
but I have no credit, whatsoever.
1621
01:30:37,208 --> 01:30:40,478
It's just an amazingly constructed,
1622
01:30:40,779 --> 01:30:43,648
as well as,
amazingly written book.
1623
01:30:46,818 --> 01:30:49,020
She has a structural mind.
1624
01:30:56,127 --> 01:30:59,364
You never knew
how she was going to do it.
1625
01:31:00,698 --> 01:31:03,468
How she was going to get
from here to there.
1626
01:31:03,869 --> 01:31:05,570
And then suddenly
you were there,
1627
01:31:06,171 --> 01:31:08,239
and it was right,
however mysterious.
1628
01:31:13,712 --> 01:31:17,082
Oprah: One day I just decided
to give myself the day.
1629
01:31:17,215 --> 01:31:19,617
I gave myself a Saturday
and I think I read from like
1630
01:31:19,885 --> 01:31:21,853
7:00 to 4:30 in the afternoon.
1631
01:31:22,587 --> 01:31:25,523
Toni Morrison
is a rock star to me.
1632
01:31:25,924 --> 01:31:29,660
All authors are.
But I love the idea
1633
01:31:29,861 --> 01:31:31,129
of just being able to talk
to authors.
1634
01:31:31,462 --> 01:31:33,631
I tried to get
Toni Morrison's number.
1635
01:31:33,832 --> 01:31:35,066
She had a private number.
1636
01:31:35,233 --> 01:31:36,567
I was desperate
to speak to her.
1637
01:31:36,835 --> 01:31:39,437
So, I called the Fire Department
in her town.
1638
01:31:39,570 --> 01:31:42,107
"This is Oprah Winfrey calling
and it's an emergency.
1639
01:31:42,307 --> 01:31:44,109
And I need to reach
Ms. Morrison.
1640
01:31:44,342 --> 01:31:46,845
Can you please call her
and tell her,"
1641
01:31:46,978 --> 01:31:49,748
and they're like, "What?
Is this real? Is this..."
1642
01:31:50,048 --> 01:31:52,083
Anyway, I got the number.
1643
01:31:52,984 --> 01:31:56,687
She said Toni Morrison,
this is Oprah Winfrey.
1644
01:31:57,555 --> 01:32:00,558
And I said,
"How did you get my number?"
1645
01:32:01,126 --> 01:32:04,963
She said, "I called the police
and the fire department."
1646
01:32:05,630 --> 01:32:07,866
My second question,
which I didn't put,
1647
01:32:08,066 --> 01:32:09,768
was, "'How did they get it?"
1648
01:32:10,368 --> 01:32:13,204
Ms. Morrison,
I just finished reading Beloved.
1649
01:32:13,371 --> 01:32:16,707
I just finished reading Beloved
and I had to talk to you.
1650
01:32:16,975 --> 01:32:18,744
And I said, "Do people
1651
01:32:18,944 --> 01:32:21,246
say to you that
they have to start and stop
1652
01:32:21,379 --> 01:32:23,281
and start and stop
when they're reading,
1653
01:32:23,414 --> 01:32:25,116
because I had to keep going
over things,
1654
01:32:25,250 --> 01:32:27,252
because just trying
to take it all in?"
1655
01:32:27,385 --> 01:32:31,489
And she said, "That, my dear,
is called reading."
1656
01:32:32,690 --> 01:32:34,826
And I said to her
I really wanted to do a movie
1657
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:37,763
and she said she didn't think
that that would be possible,
1658
01:32:38,196 --> 01:32:40,231
but that she would think
about it.
1659
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:44,202
I turned and talked to my kids
and said,
1660
01:32:44,402 --> 01:32:47,505
"That was Oprah Winfrey.
She wants to do Beloved."
1661
01:32:48,239 --> 01:32:52,043
And I said, "Gee, I don't know
if it should be a film."
1662
01:32:52,510 --> 01:32:55,747
And my older son said, "Ma,
you'll always have the book.
1663
01:32:56,347 --> 01:33:01,552
It's not destroying the book,
it's just another version."
1664
01:33:02,954 --> 01:33:04,322
I stopped him.
1665
01:33:05,857 --> 01:33:08,326
I put my babies
where they'd be safe.
1666
01:33:08,727 --> 01:33:10,495
Didn't work, though, did it?
1667
01:33:11,930 --> 01:33:13,899
They ain't at Sweet Home.
1668
01:33:15,066 --> 01:33:17,135
School teacher ain't got em.
1669
01:33:20,305 --> 01:33:23,041
Oprah: The character, Sethe,
was so important to me.
1670
01:33:23,508 --> 01:33:28,546
My hope was that people
would feel that story
1671
01:33:28,714 --> 01:33:33,651
and see the beauty
of our African-American history,
1672
01:33:34,219 --> 01:33:35,653
including slavery.
1673
01:33:36,187 --> 01:33:39,457
But understanding that
in spite of all
1674
01:33:39,657 --> 01:33:41,126
that you've been through...
1675
01:33:42,527 --> 01:33:45,430
and in spite of the worst thing
you could ever do...
1676
01:33:46,464 --> 01:33:48,599
slitting your own child's throat...
1677
01:33:49,334 --> 01:33:52,137
rather than see your child
grow up in slavery...
1678
01:33:53,905 --> 01:33:55,807
that in spite of all of that,
1679
01:33:56,307 --> 01:33:58,944
you could still grow
from that pain
1680
01:33:59,110 --> 01:34:01,112
and learn to love again.
1681
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:18,129
woman: Despite
the international stature
1682
01:34:18,296 --> 01:34:21,266
of Toni Morrison
she has yet to receive
1683
01:34:21,399 --> 01:34:23,234
the national recognition
1684
01:34:23,368 --> 01:34:27,806
that her five major works
of fiction entirely deserve.
1685
01:34:28,473 --> 01:34:30,809
She has yet to receive
the keystone honors
1686
01:34:30,942 --> 01:34:33,945
of the National Book Award
or the Pulitzer Prize.
1687
01:34:34,579 --> 01:34:36,414
man: Forty eight black writers
and critics
1688
01:34:36,547 --> 01:34:38,349
wrote a letter
supporting her work
1689
01:34:38,483 --> 01:34:40,618
that was published
in The New York Times.
1690
01:34:41,319 --> 01:34:45,056
June: We wanted to make clear
to Toni our gratitude
1691
01:34:45,190 --> 01:34:46,624
and we wanted to do that
1692
01:34:46,758 --> 01:34:48,193
specifically in relationship
to Beloved
1693
01:34:48,326 --> 01:34:51,296
but also an acknowledgement
of the meaning
1694
01:34:51,462 --> 01:34:53,298
of the lifework
of Toni Morrison.
1695
01:34:53,531 --> 01:34:57,402
Everyone recognized
the brilliance of Morrison.
1696
01:34:57,869 --> 01:34:59,204
It wasn't just,
1697
01:34:59,337 --> 01:35:00,705
because she was brilliant
on a page,
1698
01:35:01,039 --> 01:35:02,874
but she meant so much to us.
1699
01:35:03,408 --> 01:35:08,113
And for her to be ignored
was just the proverbial straw.
1700
01:35:09,480 --> 01:35:12,517
My grandmother used to say to me
sometimes, come over here girl
1701
01:35:12,650 --> 01:35:14,352
let me shake some sense
into you.
1702
01:35:15,053 --> 01:35:16,687
What we were doing as writers,
1703
01:35:16,888 --> 01:35:18,256
is that,
we were shaking some sense
1704
01:35:18,389 --> 01:35:22,560
into this American literary
establishment, saying,
1705
01:35:22,828 --> 01:35:24,863
"Come on, come off it."
1706
01:35:25,696 --> 01:35:31,602
What our goal was was to sing
a praise song for Toni Morrison,
1707
01:35:31,737 --> 01:35:35,406
who has moved the entire group,
Afro-American culture,
1708
01:35:35,573 --> 01:35:39,377
Afro American expressive culture
forward by quantum leaps.
1709
01:35:39,510 --> 01:35:43,414
So our goal was to say,
"We love you, Toni,
1710
01:35:43,548 --> 01:35:46,584
and you're doing
extraordinary work for us."
1711
01:35:47,485 --> 01:35:49,721
Angela: It was a scandal!
1712
01:35:50,255 --> 01:35:51,622
We were all incredulous...
1713
01:35:52,323 --> 01:35:54,425
that she had not been given
that honor
1714
01:35:54,592 --> 01:35:57,729
for her community
in this country represented
1715
01:35:57,863 --> 01:36:00,732
that there was something,
you know, really racist
1716
01:36:00,866 --> 01:36:03,368
and misogynist about the ways
1717
01:36:03,501 --> 01:36:06,537
in which these literary prizes
we're functioning.
1718
01:36:06,838 --> 01:36:10,275
It was an eruption. What we were
seeing then really was that...
1719
01:36:11,509 --> 01:36:14,880
kind of collision between
the canon, up to that point,
1720
01:36:15,013 --> 01:36:18,683
and the emerging canon,
that Toni was exemplifying.
1721
01:36:19,150 --> 01:36:20,719
No matter what side you are on
1722
01:36:20,852 --> 01:36:23,354
you could say something
is happening here, Mr. Jones,
1723
01:36:23,488 --> 01:36:25,791
and you don't know
what it is do you?
1724
01:36:26,758 --> 01:36:28,626
Paula:
Jimmy Baldwin had just died.
1725
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:30,595
And for all of his brilliance
1726
01:36:30,762 --> 01:36:33,398
he really had never gotten
the attention he deserved
1727
01:36:33,531 --> 01:36:35,801
or the prizes he deserved.
1728
01:36:36,667 --> 01:36:38,403
Sonia:
And then we began to talk about
1729
01:36:38,536 --> 01:36:40,438
what it means to get an award.
1730
01:36:41,072 --> 01:36:42,841
And so I said,
very dramatically,
1731
01:36:42,974 --> 01:36:45,176
"Oh, Jimmy, we teach you...
1732
01:36:46,411 --> 01:36:47,913
and you would live forever
1733
01:36:48,346 --> 01:36:49,614
you know because
we have taught you
1734
01:36:49,748 --> 01:36:52,150
for years and years
and everyone knows you.
1735
01:36:52,383 --> 01:36:54,452
And he looked at me
like I was completely insane.
1736
01:36:54,585 --> 01:36:57,422
He said, "Sonia, I'm not talking
about you teaching...
1737
01:36:57,723 --> 01:36:59,891
that's good.
I'm talking about an award.
1738
01:37:00,425 --> 01:37:02,393
I deserve an award."
1739
01:37:02,894 --> 01:37:04,930
Toni deserved an award.
1740
01:37:05,196 --> 01:37:09,567
I had had a conversation
with Gwendolyn Brooks
1741
01:37:10,135 --> 01:37:11,436
around that time.
1742
01:37:11,837 --> 01:37:14,039
June Jordan,
one of the great thinkers
1743
01:37:14,205 --> 01:37:15,540
and a very good friend
of Toni's,
1744
01:37:15,907 --> 01:37:18,043
came to Gwendolyn
and said we have this letter
1745
01:37:18,176 --> 01:37:19,477
and we need you to sign it.
1746
01:37:19,710 --> 01:37:22,080
And Gwendolyn said,
Why, am I going to go out there
1747
01:37:22,247 --> 01:37:23,815
and beg them people
for their awards?
1748
01:37:24,682 --> 01:37:26,051
I don't need their awards."
1749
01:37:27,152 --> 01:37:29,654
I can't tell you how much
I agreed with that.
1750
01:37:30,388 --> 01:37:32,057
Did she deserve
the National Book Award?
1751
01:37:32,290 --> 01:37:34,425
Absolutely.
They didn't give it, okay fine.
1752
01:37:34,625 --> 01:37:36,261
I complain
if I don't have my money.
1753
01:37:36,494 --> 01:37:38,129
I complain if she don't get
her money.
1754
01:37:38,463 --> 01:37:40,932
But I'm not gonna complain
that their aesthetics
1755
01:37:41,066 --> 01:37:42,801
don't understand black people.
1756
01:37:45,270 --> 01:37:46,938
What is your response?
Because now,
1757
01:37:47,105 --> 01:37:49,140
you're sort of caught up
in the middle of all of this.
1758
01:37:49,340 --> 01:37:51,276
It's easily
the most significant thing
1759
01:37:51,409 --> 01:37:54,179
that has ever happened to me,
in my writing life.
1760
01:37:54,679 --> 01:37:57,615
I write out of the culture
as everyone does,
1761
01:37:58,116 --> 01:38:00,151
for it through it and I'm in it.
1762
01:38:00,651 --> 01:38:03,454
So a portion of that culture
said to me...
1763
01:38:04,890 --> 01:38:05,791
"Amen."
1764
01:38:07,025 --> 01:38:09,494
Russell: I can remember
in a prize-giving committee,
1765
01:38:09,660 --> 01:38:13,064
we got into a very strenuous
argument about Beloved,
1766
01:38:13,431 --> 01:38:15,533
and I was arguing
with this writer,
1767
01:38:15,666 --> 01:38:17,435
there were two of them,
both women,
1768
01:38:17,568 --> 01:38:20,471
one black, and one white.
The black woman said,
1769
01:38:20,605 --> 01:38:23,241
"Are you trying to tell me
that African-Americans
1770
01:38:23,474 --> 01:38:26,377
have a different
historical experience
1771
01:38:26,712 --> 01:38:31,049
and social experience than
any other American immigrant?"
1772
01:38:31,516 --> 01:38:32,984
And I said, "Yes, I am.
1773
01:38:33,484 --> 01:38:35,253
Yes I definitely am trying
to do that."
1774
01:38:35,821 --> 01:38:38,623
That it's a very specific experience
1775
01:38:39,057 --> 01:38:41,760
and it is different than
the experience of Irish,
1776
01:38:41,893 --> 01:38:46,364
of which I count my ancestors,
and Italians and Jews.
1777
01:38:46,564 --> 01:38:49,134
But that argument
still lasts today.
1778
01:38:49,634 --> 01:38:52,070
Narrator:
We in America are immigrants
1779
01:38:52,370 --> 01:38:54,272
or the children of immigrants.
1780
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:56,507
We are one people,
1781
01:38:56,808 --> 01:39:00,979
but a people welded and
from many nations and races.
1782
01:39:02,013 --> 01:39:05,583
People who came to America
during a vast migration
1783
01:39:05,751 --> 01:39:08,486
from Europe to other parts
of the world.
1784
01:39:10,488 --> 01:39:13,224
In this migration,
millions of Europeans
1785
01:39:13,424 --> 01:39:14,860
left their homelands
1786
01:39:14,993 --> 01:39:17,863
to settle in new countries
across the seas.
1787
01:39:19,798 --> 01:39:23,334
Almost two thirds of them
came to the United States.
1788
01:40:05,744 --> 01:40:07,078
Toni: Blacks were steady.
1789
01:40:07,412 --> 01:40:09,547
Everybody could look down
on them.
1790
01:40:09,915 --> 01:40:12,751
Immigrant Italians,
immigrant Polish,
1791
01:40:12,884 --> 01:40:16,521
there was always a bottom
you could be hostile to.
1792
01:40:16,922 --> 01:40:19,825
And that was useful
in bringing the country together
1793
01:40:19,958 --> 01:40:23,528
into the melting pot
where I lived as a child,
1794
01:40:24,062 --> 01:40:27,465
not knowing what I know now
is how it got to be there.
1795
01:40:27,799 --> 01:40:31,236
What was the basis,
the cauldron, the pot?
1796
01:40:31,837 --> 01:40:32,838
Melting pot.
1797
01:40:33,104 --> 01:40:34,705
Well, black people were the pot.
1798
01:40:36,908 --> 01:40:40,511
And everything else was,
you know, melted together
1799
01:40:40,645 --> 01:40:42,948
and what? American.
1800
01:40:44,549 --> 01:40:46,684
That's how you get to be
an American.
1801
01:40:47,452 --> 01:40:49,120
If you get in that pot...
1802
01:40:49,654 --> 01:40:53,024
of black people.
Then you can be nice to Jews,
1803
01:40:53,258 --> 01:40:56,327
Italians, Catholics, whatever.
1804
01:40:56,995 --> 01:40:58,529
That's my take.
1805
01:41:06,838 --> 01:41:09,007
Charlie: Do you, Toni Morrison,
Pulitzer prize winner,
1806
01:41:09,207 --> 01:41:11,910
successful, honored in
the halls of academe,
1807
01:41:12,110 --> 01:41:13,912
still have that encounter?
1808
01:41:14,379 --> 01:41:15,981
Toni:
Yes I do, but let me tell you,
1809
01:41:16,114 --> 01:41:17,448
that's the wrong question.
1810
01:41:17,582 --> 01:41:18,616
Charlie: Okay,
what's the right question?
1811
01:41:18,850 --> 01:41:21,920
How do you feel?
Don't you understand
1812
01:41:22,253 --> 01:41:23,789
that the people
who do this thing,
1813
01:41:23,922 --> 01:41:25,824
- who practice racism...
- Charlie: Right.
1814
01:41:26,257 --> 01:41:27,325
...are bereft?
1815
01:41:27,759 --> 01:41:31,229
That is something distorted
about the psyche.
1816
01:41:31,529 --> 01:41:33,732
It's a huge waste
1817
01:41:33,999 --> 01:41:36,634
and it's a corruption
and a distortion.
1818
01:41:37,002 --> 01:41:39,537
It's like
it's a profound neurosis
1819
01:41:39,838 --> 01:41:42,073
that nobody examines
for what it is.
1820
01:41:42,240 --> 01:41:44,375
It feels crazy. It is crazy.
1821
01:41:45,010 --> 01:41:47,645
It has just as much
of a deleterious effect...
1822
01:41:48,313 --> 01:41:51,783
on white people
as it does black people.
1823
01:41:52,583 --> 01:41:55,987
If the racist white person
doesn't understand
1824
01:41:56,221 --> 01:41:58,389
that he or she is also a race,
1825
01:41:58,757 --> 01:42:02,427
it's also constructed,
it's also made
1826
01:42:02,660 --> 01:42:04,863
and it also has some
kind of serviceability
1827
01:42:05,196 --> 01:42:08,867
but when you take it away,
I take your race away
1828
01:42:09,367 --> 01:42:10,635
and there you are,
all strung out
1829
01:42:10,836 --> 01:42:13,271
and all you got
is your little self.
1830
01:42:13,604 --> 01:42:17,342
And what is that?
What are you without racism?
1831
01:42:17,909 --> 01:42:20,746
Are you any good?
Are you still strong?
1832
01:42:21,146 --> 01:42:22,547
Still smart?
1833
01:42:26,484 --> 01:42:28,353
If you can only be tall
1834
01:42:28,820 --> 01:42:30,722
because somebody's
on their knees,
1835
01:42:30,856 --> 01:42:32,623
then you have a serious problem.
1836
01:42:32,858 --> 01:42:35,093
And my feeling is,
white people...
1837
01:42:35,827 --> 01:42:39,731
have a very,
very serious problem
1838
01:42:40,131 --> 01:42:44,903
and they should start thinking
about what they can do about it.
1839
01:42:45,403 --> 01:42:46,772
Take me out of it.
1840
01:43:05,123 --> 01:43:06,925
Fran:
When Toni won the Nobel Prize,
1841
01:43:07,092 --> 01:43:08,693
I was in my apartment
in New York
1842
01:43:08,927 --> 01:43:11,229
where I remember this vividly.
I was in the shower,
1843
01:43:11,562 --> 01:43:13,264
but I had the radio on
in the kitchen,
1844
01:43:13,398 --> 01:43:14,665
on the news station.
1845
01:43:14,900 --> 01:43:17,135
I hear, in the shower, I think,
1846
01:43:17,502 --> 01:43:19,704
that Toni Morrison has won
the Nobel Prize for Literature.
1847
01:43:20,238 --> 01:43:22,373
This is a news station
that tells you the same news
1848
01:43:22,540 --> 01:43:24,075
every 22 minutes.
I was so shocked,
1849
01:43:24,209 --> 01:43:26,778
I thought I was mishearing.
I got out of the shower
1850
01:43:27,078 --> 01:43:29,180
and stood there soaking wet
for 22 minutes
1851
01:43:29,314 --> 01:43:30,782
until the news came back on.
1852
01:43:31,649 --> 01:43:32,984
And I just couldn't believe it.
1853
01:43:33,118 --> 01:43:35,220
I woke up about three o' clock
in the morning
1854
01:43:35,386 --> 01:43:37,688
and I turned on the idiot box
and they announced
1855
01:43:37,823 --> 01:43:40,691
that Toni Morrison had received
the Nobel Prize in lit.
1856
01:43:40,926 --> 01:43:44,129
So I got on the telephone.
Her son answered the phone.
1857
01:43:44,595 --> 01:43:45,964
"Is Toni there,
is your mom there?"
1858
01:43:46,131 --> 01:43:47,999
I said, "She's just won
the Nobel Prize."
1859
01:43:48,133 --> 01:43:50,736
He said, "Really?"
He said, "She's in Princeton."
1860
01:43:50,869 --> 01:43:53,004
So I called back
and Toni picked up the phone.
1861
01:43:53,138 --> 01:43:55,440
I got the news
from a friend of mine
1862
01:43:55,573 --> 01:43:57,008
who called me up
early in the morning
1863
01:43:57,208 --> 01:43:59,244
and said,
"Toni, you won the Nobel Prize."
1864
01:43:59,610 --> 01:44:01,546
And I remember
holding the phone thinking
1865
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:04,349
'she must be drunk'
and I hung up.
1866
01:44:04,515 --> 01:44:06,718
She called me right back.
And I said, "How do you know?"
1867
01:44:06,852 --> 01:44:08,453
Why would she know something
I don't know?
1868
01:44:08,787 --> 01:44:09,988
And I went to work.
1869
01:44:11,289 --> 01:44:12,791
Then suddenly
there are all these...
1870
01:44:13,124 --> 01:44:15,794
cameras and
things and people...
1871
01:44:16,694 --> 01:44:19,064
and I sort of smiled
just in case.
1872
01:44:19,931 --> 01:44:21,232
I wasn't sure because,
1873
01:44:21,532 --> 01:44:23,835
the Nobel people
hadn't said a word.
1874
01:44:24,002 --> 01:44:26,371
twelve o' clock, noon,
I'm in my office,
1875
01:44:26,637 --> 01:44:29,140
I get a phone call from Sweden
1876
01:44:29,274 --> 01:44:31,576
and they tell me
that I have won Nobel Prize
1877
01:44:31,777 --> 01:44:35,146
and congratulate me, et cetera.
A lovely conversation
1878
01:44:35,480 --> 01:44:38,016
and I said,
"Would you fax me that?"
1879
01:44:40,418 --> 01:44:42,821
It could have been a prank.
I mean, you know.
1880
01:44:43,088 --> 01:44:45,156
They said, "Of course."
And they did.
1881
01:44:50,261 --> 01:44:51,997
Reporter: What are you
going to do with the money?
1882
01:44:52,130 --> 01:44:54,665
I mean this is an entirely
brand new experience for me,
1883
01:44:54,833 --> 01:44:56,567
deciding what to do with money
1884
01:44:57,002 --> 01:44:59,170
so I'm not good at it.
I've had no practice.
1885
01:44:59,670 --> 01:45:03,108
So I'm going to think about that
very carefully
1886
01:45:03,241 --> 01:45:05,010
and try to come up
with something,
1887
01:45:05,710 --> 01:45:08,579
marvelous to do
other than the obvious
1888
01:45:08,714 --> 01:45:10,681
which is pay off the mortgage
or something.
1889
01:45:11,116 --> 01:45:13,118
What do you think it is though
if you can tell us that
1890
01:45:13,318 --> 01:45:15,353
sets you apart
from so many others?
1891
01:45:15,787 --> 01:45:18,556
What are you saying
that they want to hear?
1892
01:45:19,490 --> 01:45:21,159
I think I write well...
1893
01:45:21,827 --> 01:45:24,996
and I think
I have a distinctive voice.
1894
01:45:25,496 --> 01:45:29,067
That's what makes writing this
very difficult, very risky,
1895
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:30,969
very powerful enterprise.
1896
01:45:35,106 --> 01:45:37,142
Fran: I called a florist
in Princeton
1897
01:45:37,475 --> 01:45:38,877
to send her flowers.
1898
01:45:39,010 --> 01:45:41,546
And the woman, the florist,
said to me,
1899
01:45:41,847 --> 01:45:43,148
"What's going on over there?
1900
01:45:43,281 --> 01:45:45,383
We've been delivering flowers
there all day."
1901
01:45:45,884 --> 01:45:49,554
So I said, very proudly,
"She won the Nobel Prize."
1902
01:45:49,855 --> 01:45:52,557
And the florist, this would only
happen in Princeton,
1903
01:45:52,690 --> 01:45:54,860
maybe Cambridge, said,
"For what?"
1904
01:45:56,294 --> 01:45:59,330
And I said, "Literature."
And she went, "Oh."
1905
01:46:01,900 --> 01:46:05,804
And I'm delighted to represent Ohio,
1906
01:46:06,037 --> 01:46:09,507
to represent New York State,
because I live there,
1907
01:46:09,707 --> 01:46:12,443
and New Jersey
because I work and live here.
1908
01:46:12,778 --> 01:46:14,746
And to represent America,
1909
01:46:15,213 --> 01:46:18,049
as an American winner
of a fiction prize,
1910
01:46:18,283 --> 01:46:21,119
native born
and also particularly,
1911
01:46:21,519 --> 01:46:23,021
because I'm an African-American.
1912
01:46:23,421 --> 01:46:27,325
And, I'm a women.
So I'm parceling out this
1913
01:46:27,525 --> 01:46:29,027
all over the place.
1914
01:46:35,400 --> 01:46:37,535
I like the Nobel Prize...
1915
01:46:38,269 --> 01:46:41,039
because they know
how to give a party,
1916
01:46:41,406 --> 01:46:42,908
I am telling you.
1917
01:46:43,842 --> 01:46:45,376
It was so grand.
1918
01:46:46,077 --> 01:46:50,348
They wake you up with wreaths,
flowers, music.
1919
01:46:50,716 --> 01:46:51,750
But it was light,
1920
01:46:52,050 --> 01:46:54,452
you know it wasn't like
the Nobel Prize.
1921
01:46:54,652 --> 01:46:58,790
It was light
and lovely and warm.
1922
01:46:59,991 --> 01:47:01,492
Fran:
Toni loves this kind of thing.
1923
01:47:02,027 --> 01:47:03,962
I mean not that
there's a lot of kinds of things
1924
01:47:04,129 --> 01:47:06,697
like the Nobel Prize
but Toni loves things like this.
1925
01:47:06,865 --> 01:47:09,634
Toni loves prizes.
She loves presents.
1926
01:47:09,968 --> 01:47:11,903
I have a birthday party.
Don't, no presents.
1927
01:47:12,037 --> 01:47:14,005
Toni, a birthday party,
you better bring a present.
1928
01:47:18,877 --> 01:47:20,511
She decided,
'I'm bringing a lot of friends
1929
01:47:20,712 --> 01:47:24,750
and she invited me.
It was extremely fun.
1930
01:47:25,416 --> 01:47:26,918
I would highly recommend
1931
01:47:27,185 --> 01:47:29,788
that you have a friend
who wins a Nobel Prize.
1932
01:47:30,521 --> 01:47:31,890
Toni: I invited John Leonard
1933
01:47:32,357 --> 01:47:33,992
because he had been
the first person
1934
01:47:34,159 --> 01:47:36,194
who took my work seriously.
1935
01:47:36,828 --> 01:47:39,130
So I invited him
to come to Stockholm.
1936
01:47:39,364 --> 01:47:41,466
He's, "Oh, I don't know
if I could do that..."
1937
01:47:43,534 --> 01:47:45,603
And I say to him, "You're never
going to be invited
1938
01:47:45,771 --> 01:47:47,172
to this ever again."
1939
01:47:47,438 --> 01:47:49,574
So he said,
"You're right." And he came.
1940
01:47:50,008 --> 01:47:51,342
We had a lot of fun.
1941
01:47:53,578 --> 01:47:54,813
Before the ball, we spent,
1942
01:47:55,046 --> 01:47:57,582
like, a bunch of girls
I would say,
1943
01:47:57,849 --> 01:47:59,184
spent a couple of hours
in a room
1944
01:47:59,317 --> 01:48:01,686
choosing gloves for her
and shoes.
1945
01:48:01,820 --> 01:48:04,189
You know, she loves clothes,
Toni. That's the other thing.
1946
01:48:14,199 --> 01:48:16,902
Farah:
When Toni won the Nobel Prize,
1947
01:48:17,068 --> 01:48:19,270
it was not just an important moment
1948
01:48:19,404 --> 01:48:21,272
for African-American
literature,
1949
01:48:21,740 --> 01:48:23,909
I think it was an important
moment for the prize.
1950
01:48:24,342 --> 01:48:28,079
How many women have won?
Two, three women had won?
1951
01:48:28,579 --> 01:48:30,916
It was a moment
for American literature.
1952
01:48:31,049 --> 01:48:32,951
It was a moment
for contemporary literature.
1953
01:48:33,084 --> 01:48:37,655
I mean, it was a moment
for so many corners of the world
1954
01:48:37,823 --> 01:48:39,657
that didn't always fully
embrace it.
1955
01:48:39,791 --> 01:48:43,228
Don't forget when I began
writing in the early 60s,
1956
01:48:43,494 --> 01:48:44,863
Toni began writing too,
1957
01:48:45,163 --> 01:48:46,898
Faulkner was still alive.
1958
01:48:47,799 --> 01:48:49,467
Hemingway was still alive.
1959
01:48:50,168 --> 01:48:52,703
Fitzgerald had only
recently died.
1960
01:48:53,004 --> 01:48:54,405
It was a club,
1961
01:48:54,539 --> 01:48:58,043
a very small clubhouse
with a very small membership.
1962
01:48:58,176 --> 01:49:00,211
You think of a pyramid
with a very small base
1963
01:49:00,345 --> 01:49:02,914
and vertical...
almost vertical sides
1964
01:49:03,081 --> 01:49:04,549
coming to a fine point
at the top,
1965
01:49:05,150 --> 01:49:08,053
where three or four white men
could stand together
1966
01:49:08,754 --> 01:49:09,988
and fight it out.
1967
01:49:10,321 --> 01:49:13,291
So suddenly the canon
wasn't the private property
1968
01:49:13,458 --> 01:49:17,628
of white male writers
of a certain ilk or class.
1969
01:49:17,863 --> 01:49:21,266
It was really going to have
to be the property of everybody.
1970
01:49:22,667 --> 01:49:24,502
Sonia: The Washington Post
called me and asked me
1971
01:49:24,635 --> 01:49:27,505
for a comment and I did
this glorious comment.
1972
01:49:28,439 --> 01:49:32,978
But when the newspaper article
came out there was no comment
1973
01:49:33,111 --> 01:49:34,913
on what I had said,
the praise I had.
1974
01:49:35,080 --> 01:49:37,148
But they were comments
from three male writers
1975
01:49:37,315 --> 01:49:40,285
who said, "Oh, she does all that
writing about women.
1976
01:49:40,518 --> 01:49:42,988
Oh, she does all this stuff
about slavery."
1977
01:49:43,154 --> 01:49:45,556
They even said she
didn't deserve the Nobel Prize.
1978
01:49:46,291 --> 01:49:48,126
I was so surprised.
1979
01:49:51,997 --> 01:49:53,531
man: Beloved was a fraud.
1980
01:49:55,300 --> 01:49:58,336
It gave a fake vision
of the slave trade.
1981
01:49:59,838 --> 01:50:01,907
All the guys are pissed.
1982
01:50:02,707 --> 01:50:04,309
And the ladies like it.
1983
01:50:07,145 --> 01:50:08,914
Whites are portrayed badly.
1984
01:50:10,048 --> 01:50:11,182
Men are.
1985
01:50:11,817 --> 01:50:13,118
Black men are.
1986
01:50:14,619 --> 01:50:18,356
I hope this prize inspires her
to write better books.
1987
01:50:19,424 --> 01:50:22,994
The award was a triumph
of political correctness.
1988
01:50:26,364 --> 01:50:30,168
Farah: Unfortunately,
when women or when black people
1989
01:50:30,468 --> 01:50:33,504
receive the accolades
that they certainly deserve,
1990
01:50:33,638 --> 01:50:35,006
it becomes questioned.
1991
01:50:35,340 --> 01:50:36,775
Was it a political choice?
1992
01:50:37,075 --> 01:50:39,945
Did they just choose her to do
the politically correct thing?
1993
01:50:40,211 --> 01:50:42,313
And I always think
those people haven't read her.
1994
01:50:42,714 --> 01:50:44,615
They haven't read her,
because if they read her,
1995
01:50:44,750 --> 01:50:47,318
there would be no question
that if there's a Nobel Prize
1996
01:50:47,452 --> 01:50:49,654
to be given,
she ought to have it.
1997
01:50:49,788 --> 01:50:53,191
It was the absolute
justification, the legitimation,
1998
01:50:53,324 --> 01:50:55,160
the sense that this writer,
1999
01:50:55,460 --> 01:50:57,395
who had been ignored
for a long time,
2000
01:50:57,528 --> 01:50:59,630
who had been diminished
by some people,
2001
01:50:59,831 --> 01:51:01,432
that on the world stage...
2002
01:51:01,933 --> 01:51:04,936
On the world stage,
she was a star.
2003
01:51:24,589 --> 01:51:27,125
Toni: When I was writing
Song of Solomon...
2004
01:51:28,259 --> 01:51:30,528
there was a character in there
called Pilate.
2005
01:51:32,630 --> 01:51:33,631
She threatened me...
2006
01:51:34,900 --> 01:51:36,001
a lot.
2007
01:51:39,237 --> 01:51:41,506
Threatened the book.
She's going to take over.
2008
01:51:43,041 --> 01:51:44,142
I mean really.
2009
01:51:44,843 --> 01:51:45,911
So I told her to shut up.
2010
01:51:46,411 --> 01:51:48,146
This is my book, not yours.
2011
01:51:49,848 --> 01:51:52,650
She only really speaks,
at the funeral...
2012
01:51:53,051 --> 01:51:53,985
of her daughter.
2013
01:51:54,720 --> 01:51:56,788
And she burst
into that church...
2014
01:51:57,522 --> 01:52:03,428
and says, over and over again,
"And she was loved."
2015
01:52:05,230 --> 01:52:08,099
Totally generous, free woman. Fearless.
2016
01:52:08,633 --> 01:52:11,269
She's not afraid of anything
and complete...
2017
01:52:11,770 --> 01:52:13,338
clarity about who she is.
2018
01:52:13,571 --> 01:52:14,906
Bill: And you know people
like that?
2019
01:52:15,040 --> 01:52:16,808
Toni: Yes. In my family.
2020
01:52:17,708 --> 01:52:19,945
Women who presented themselves
to me in that way.
2021
01:52:20,245 --> 01:52:21,980
They were just absolutely clear.
2022
01:52:22,748 --> 01:52:25,416
And they had a, sort of,
intimate relationship with God
2023
01:52:25,583 --> 01:52:27,352
and death and all sorts
of things
2024
01:52:27,652 --> 01:52:30,655
that strike fear
into the modern heart.
2025
01:52:31,056 --> 01:52:32,824
They had a language for it...
2026
01:52:33,191 --> 01:52:34,459
and they had a...
2027
01:52:35,126 --> 01:52:37,395
I don't know,
a blessedness maybe.
2028
01:52:38,429 --> 01:52:40,398
But they seem not to be...
2029
01:52:41,232 --> 01:52:42,367
fearful.
2030
01:52:43,902 --> 01:52:46,371
It's to those women you know
that I really feel
2031
01:52:46,504 --> 01:52:48,239
an enormous responsibility.
2032
01:52:48,974 --> 01:52:52,110
I think about
my great grandmother, and...
2033
01:52:52,343 --> 01:52:55,080
her daughter,
and her daughter...
2034
01:52:55,413 --> 01:52:56,782
and all those women, who had...
2035
01:52:57,048 --> 01:52:59,417
I mean, incredible things
happen to those people.
2036
01:52:59,550 --> 01:53:01,686
They never knew
from one day to the next.
2037
01:53:03,188 --> 01:53:04,355
About anything.
2038
01:53:04,756 --> 01:53:08,293
But they believed
in their dignity...
2039
01:53:09,327 --> 01:53:11,562
that they were people
of value...
2040
01:53:12,163 --> 01:53:14,232
that they had to pass that on.
2041
01:53:15,033 --> 01:53:16,301
And they did it.
2042
01:53:22,173 --> 01:53:23,441
Oprah:
One of the characters says
2043
01:53:23,574 --> 01:53:25,744
at the end of Song of Solomon,
2044
01:53:27,045 --> 01:53:31,182
"And she was loved.
2045
01:53:32,350 --> 01:53:37,255
And she was loved."
2046
01:53:38,389 --> 01:53:41,192
That is the anthem for any life.
2047
01:53:41,326 --> 01:53:44,930
You can come to the planet
and do whatever you do,
2048
01:53:45,063 --> 01:53:46,464
accomplish
whatever you accomplish,
2049
01:53:46,631 --> 01:53:49,667
awards no awards,
degrees no degrees,
2050
01:53:50,068 --> 01:53:51,803
successes, no successes.
2051
01:53:53,538 --> 01:53:56,207
I think she captured
the essence of what it means
2052
01:53:56,474 --> 01:53:59,544
to be human, to be alive,
and to...
2053
01:54:00,178 --> 01:54:02,080
have done well here on Earth.
2054
01:54:04,315 --> 01:54:06,184
And we can say
the same thing for her.
2055
01:54:07,152 --> 01:54:10,621
And she is loved.
2056
01:54:16,461 --> 01:54:20,131
One of the things that you know
about sister Toni,
2057
01:54:20,298 --> 01:54:22,868
when I first saw her,
you know...
2058
01:54:23,001 --> 01:54:25,503
You know, I saw... You know,
2059
01:54:25,771 --> 01:54:27,873
you know,
this white light around her,
2060
01:54:28,339 --> 01:54:30,175
you know, hmm...
2061
01:54:38,850 --> 01:54:42,120
and you know,
there are some people you know
2062
01:54:42,253 --> 01:54:44,089
who are really
the blessed ones...
2063
01:54:44,555 --> 01:54:46,157
that they are put here...
2064
01:54:47,292 --> 01:54:50,729
to make us really
review ourselves
2065
01:54:51,096 --> 01:54:55,767
so we can walk upright,
finally, as human beings,
2066
01:54:55,934 --> 01:54:58,303
finally as human beings.
2067
01:55:05,510 --> 01:55:06,745
Toni: On shore...
2068
01:55:07,779 --> 01:55:11,382
holding everything together,
but willing to risk...
2069
01:55:12,283 --> 01:55:15,586
and go far out to sea.
2070
01:55:19,290 --> 01:55:20,425
Courage.
2071
01:55:21,126 --> 01:55:22,493
Domesticity.
2072
01:55:23,829 --> 01:55:26,031
This is what black people
mean to me...
2073
01:55:26,664 --> 01:55:29,200
and still mean to each other.
2074
01:55:30,435 --> 01:55:33,872
But for me the history
of the place of black people...
2075
01:55:35,040 --> 01:55:36,507
in this country...
2076
01:55:36,942 --> 01:55:39,277
is so varied,
2077
01:55:39,610 --> 01:55:42,480
complex and beautiful.
2078
01:55:43,381 --> 01:55:45,350
And impactful.
2079
01:55:46,117 --> 01:55:47,685
Made a big impact.
2080
01:55:48,419 --> 01:55:51,723
Nobody could have loved
as much as we did...
2081
01:55:52,557 --> 01:55:55,460
went on with life
as much as we did...
2082
01:55:56,427 --> 01:55:57,896
carried on...
2083
01:55:59,330 --> 01:56:02,633
and considering the efforts...
2084
01:56:03,268 --> 01:56:05,737
to make sure we never did.
2085
01:56:06,371 --> 01:56:07,638
Considering that.
2086
01:56:08,406 --> 01:56:09,607
It's amazing.
2087
01:56:14,245 --> 01:56:15,847
I was in a place once,
2088
01:56:17,082 --> 01:56:18,249
in Vienna.
2089
01:56:19,250 --> 01:56:21,386
They had an art festival there.
2090
01:56:22,453 --> 01:56:25,590
And I was asked
to go into this room and move...
2091
01:56:25,957 --> 01:56:27,793
in front of a mirror...
2092
01:56:28,526 --> 01:56:30,261
in a room that was totally dark.
2093
01:56:30,829 --> 01:56:33,098
And I was instructed
to lift my hand...
2094
01:56:33,664 --> 01:56:35,166
and put it on the mirror...
2095
01:56:35,867 --> 01:56:38,770
and just stand there.
And then I saw...
2096
01:56:40,238 --> 01:56:41,940
off in the distance a figure...
2097
01:56:42,774 --> 01:56:46,845
that came closer
and closer and closer.
2098
01:56:47,212 --> 01:56:48,579
And she put up her hand.
2099
01:56:49,247 --> 01:56:50,648
And our hands touch.
2100
01:56:51,449 --> 01:56:53,084
Neither one of us said a word...
2101
01:56:53,651 --> 01:56:57,956
just interest,
curiosity and human connection.
2102
01:56:58,323 --> 01:57:01,526
That experience says
more and much
2103
01:57:01,727 --> 01:57:04,863
about what I think I'm doing
when I write.
2104
01:57:06,064 --> 01:57:08,166
I know I'm not you.
2105
01:57:08,499 --> 01:57:11,036
I know, I don't know you.
2106
01:57:11,302 --> 01:57:12,503
But I know this.
2107
01:57:19,377 --> 01:57:24,315
♪ When the crimson moon
Low rides the night ♪
2108
01:57:24,449 --> 01:57:29,620
♪ There's a shine on the water
Where secrets burn bright ♪
2109
01:57:30,688 --> 01:57:34,625
♪ Walk to the edge
And dance with me ♪
2110
01:57:35,626 --> 01:57:39,197
♪ Walk to the edge
And set yourself free ♪
2111
01:57:39,330 --> 01:57:41,466
♪ Above the water ♪
2112
01:57:43,634 --> 01:57:46,471
♪ High above the water ♪
2113
01:57:48,907 --> 01:57:54,012
♪ Above the gathering stones
Into ancient arms ♪
2114
01:57:54,145 --> 01:57:55,914
♪ Above the water ♪
2115
01:57:56,181 --> 01:57:58,516
♪ Hey, above the water ♪
2116
01:57:59,117 --> 01:58:04,155
♪ There's a crack in the wall
Of shiny things ♪
2117
01:58:04,555 --> 01:58:06,557
♪ Where the broke
And the blind ♪
2118
01:58:06,925 --> 01:58:09,160
♪ The one-eyed man is king ♪
2119
01:58:10,228 --> 01:58:13,999
♪ Walk to the edge
And dance with me ♪
2120
01:58:14,232 --> 01:58:18,403
♪ Walk to the edge
And set yourself free ♪
2121
01:58:18,636 --> 01:58:20,906
♪ Above the water ♪
2122
01:58:23,274 --> 01:58:25,877
♪ High above the water ♪
2123
01:58:26,011 --> 01:58:27,879
♪ High ♪
2124
01:58:28,446 --> 01:58:33,384
♪ Above the gathering stones
Into ancient arms ♪
2125
01:58:33,584 --> 01:58:35,821
♪ Above the water ♪
2126
01:58:39,324 --> 01:58:43,561
♪ Woke up this morning,
Put my feet on the clay ♪
2127
01:58:44,295 --> 01:58:48,166
♪ Me and my baby walks
These fears away ♪
2128
01:58:48,433 --> 01:58:50,736
♪ Above the water ♪
2129
01:58:52,437 --> 01:58:55,606
♪ Oh, above the water ♪
2130
01:58:59,044 --> 01:59:03,148
♪ Dancing in the crossroads
Climbing up that hill ♪
2131
01:59:03,648 --> 01:59:08,720
♪ Fallen angel sentenced
And is trying to make a deal ♪
2132
01:59:09,721 --> 01:59:11,289
♪ You got to go ♪
2133
01:59:11,890 --> 01:59:15,560
♪ You got to go
Above the water ♪
2134
01:59:17,628 --> 01:59:20,231
♪ High above the water ♪
2135
01:59:20,766 --> 01:59:25,270
♪ Above the water
High above the water ♪
2136
01:59:25,771 --> 01:59:30,475
♪ Above the, hot damn
High above the water ♪
2137
01:59:32,543 --> 01:59:35,113
♪ High above the water ♪
2138
01:59:36,414 --> 01:59:37,916
♪ High above ♪
2139
01:59:38,116 --> 01:59:42,653
♪ Above the gathering stones,
Into ancient arms ♪
2140
01:59:42,854 --> 01:59:45,056
♪ Above the water ♪
2141
01:59:48,693 --> 01:59:55,000
♪ High above the water ♪
2142
01:59:57,635 --> 01:59:59,938
♪ Above the water ♪
2143
02:00:01,940 --> 02:00:04,876
♪ Oh, above the water ♪
2144
02:00:07,012 --> 02:00:09,881
♪ High above the water ♪
2145
02:00:10,916 --> 02:00:14,753
♪ High above the water ♪
2146
02:00:17,322 --> 02:00:20,458
♪ High above the water ♪