1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,320 Ready? Yep. 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:07,760 I'm going to Barnsley. 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,240 I've never been to Barnsley before. 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,080 "Why are you going to Barnsley, Greg?" I'll tell you. 5 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,880 I've been asked to make a documentary about this little book, 6 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,560 A Kestrel For A Knave by Barry Hines. 7 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,480 I love this book, and this book is set in Barnsley. 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,240 It's one of the first things I ever read. 9 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:28,800 I was one of the first stories at school that really got me. 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,880 That really drew me in. 11 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,840 And then later, it came back into my life again 12 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:40,160 because I became a teacher, and it was my go-to book in the classroom 13 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:41,920 to get children engaged, 14 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,480 especially kids who didn't want to read, particularly. 15 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:47,040 That little book always drew them in. 16 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,400 It's my first documentary. 17 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,600 I have to wear the same shirt for the whole documentary 18 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,160 for continuity reasons. 19 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:54,240 So, I've already learnt before we start... 20 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,520 ..BBC presenters... 21 00:00:58,640 --> 00:00:59,720 ..they smell. 22 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:02,880 This programme contains some strong language 23 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,920 'As you watch me inexplicably filmed from above, walking up a road, 24 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,840 'know this - our trip will unearth proof 25 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,880 t'hat the original Billy Casper can still flick the V.... 26 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,800 Screw you. 27 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:20,120 '..the wisdom of a pop star...' 28 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,360 Like, we all need to take the jesses off now and again. 29 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,400 GREG CHUCKLES 30 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,400 God, we do. 31 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:25,600 '..a live hawk...' 32 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,320 Oh! Tiffin. What's this? 33 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:29,720 '..a man with a live hawk... Yeah. 34 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,080 '..garment sniffing, and another man with a live hawk.' 35 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:35,800 I probably shouldn't have eaten fish 36 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,720 before I started doing a piece to camera. 37 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,320 'There'll be technical problems...' 38 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:41,920 Look if I stand up. 39 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:41,920 LAUGHTER 40 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,160 How did you get on with Barry Hines, Millie? 41 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,680 '..but don't panic, mainly I'm here to celebrate a much-loved book.' 42 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,360 If A Kestrel For A Knave asks anything of people, 43 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,680 it's to find the thing that you love. Precisely. 44 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,680 Consider yourself teased. 45 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,760 'What I have realised is I actually know very little about this book 46 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,640 'outside of the story. 47 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,200 'I know nothing of the author, Barry Hines, 48 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,240 'and nothing about Hoyland Common near Barnsley, 49 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,640 'the South Yorkshire town that was the book's setting. 50 00:02:10,640 --> 00:02:13,680 'What I do know is that A Kestrel For A Knave 51 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,280 'has been in print since it was first published in 1968.' 52 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,960 For many, it's better known as the film Kes, made little more than a year after the book came out. 53 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,080 The story of Billy Casper, a boy from a mining community 54 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,080 who teaches himself to train a kestrel 55 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,120 has been capturing people's imaginations for decades. 56 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,080 Casper, where the devil have you been? 57 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,880 Nowhere, Sir. Nowhere? 58 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,600 Who are you, the Invisible Man? 59 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:43,400 It's a roller-coaster of brutality, hope, despair and iconic comedy... 60 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,600 And Bobby Charlton has equalised for Manchester United. 61 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,400 ..its influence rearing its head over the years 62 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,520 in the most unlikely places. 63 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,880 It's a kestrel, Sir. Beautiful. Can it fly? 64 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,240 Yes, it's flying now, Sir. 65 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,280 STUDIO AUDIENCE LAUGHS 66 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:02,760 'Here in Hoyland Common, I'm keen to know if the book and film still speak to the local people today. 67 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,080 The answer to that question comes quickly. 68 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,160 CAMERA CLICKS 69 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,160 There you go. 70 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,400 Thank you. You're welcome. 71 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,040 I've got DVD of that. 72 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,360 And, er... Have you? Have you watched it? 73 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,600 Yeah, I've watched it, like, hundred times, to be honest with you. 74 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,600 It's just really good how he's, like... 75 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,680 ..how he's trained a kestrel from a certain age, 76 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,560 and like it'd take people years and years to do that. 77 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,720 I mean, are you rolling on this? 78 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,600 Well, I didn't know until me dad were saying, 79 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,680 "Oh, er, Kes were filmed here," 80 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,040 and all that. 81 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:36,600 I don't know what to say. 82 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,080 HE GIGGLES 83 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,880 You've said enough. That's amazing. 84 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,640 In 1968, these houses were full of mining families 85 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,520 just getting on with their lives. 86 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,960 One year later, in the summer of '69, 87 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,040 something mad happened in Hoyland Common - 88 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,880 a film crew descended. 89 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,600 Now, that in itself would have been big news round here. 90 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,560 But, then, the community got word that Ken Loach, the director, 91 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,360 didn't want to use trained actors, 92 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,560 he wanted to cast from the local community. 93 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,680 So, suddenly these people found themselves queuing up for auditions 94 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,560 with a chance of being in an international film. 95 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,640 So who better to talk to about the enduring appeal of this book 96 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,280 than the man who directed the award-winning film that followed it? 97 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:21,480 Ken Loach. 98 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,800 Here it is, the home of Sixteen Films. 99 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,120 BUZZER RINGS 100 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,200 ON INTERCOM: Hello? Hello, it's Greg Davies. 101 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,600 ENTRY SYSTEM BUZZES 102 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,840 I think that was Ken Loach. 103 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:43,120 Here we go. 104 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,800 Let's face it, I'm out of my depth here. 105 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,480 'I quickly set about impressing the celebrated director 106 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,720 'by showing him how good I am at clapping.' 107 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,280 I'm going to start with a really pedestrian question 108 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:04,440 and ask you just to tell me how it came about. 109 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:11,040 Erm, well, I met Barry Hines through Tony Garnett, the producer of Kes, 110 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,680 and Tony and I were old friends at the BBC, 111 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,160 and we'd done a lot of stuff together, 112 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,120 and, erm, we were hoping to make a feature film. 113 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:25,880 Tony had met Barry Hines and asked Barry to do a story 114 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,280 for The Wednesday Play. 115 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:30,520 Tony. Greg? 116 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,120 And he said, "No." 117 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:33,600 GREG CHUCKLES 118 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,920 And that surprised me. 119 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,000 Sometimes you just meet people and you just click. 120 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,440 He'd got very piercing, blue eyes, 121 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,160 that just went through you. 122 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,640 And he said there was a book he wanted to go and write. 123 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,960 But, then, 18 months later, his agent sent me a draft of 124 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,960 A Kestrel For A Knave, 125 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,560 and I started to read it, 126 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,400 and then cancelled everything for the rest of the day, 127 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,480 and read it till I'd finished, 128 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,680 and made a decision there and then that we must make a film of it. 129 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:06,800 Wow. 130 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,240 I mean, the truth of the book shone through. 131 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,640 The comedy of the book shone through. 132 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,960 And, of course, the great thing that is in the book was the strength 133 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:20,880 of the central image, of a boy who is trapped training a bird... 134 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,160 ..that flies free. 135 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:23,200 Kes! 136 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:27,720 C'mon, Kes! 137 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,200 C'mon, Kes! 138 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:39,400 How easy was the book to turn into a film script? 139 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:40,880 Very easy. 140 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:46,120 I mean, Ken and Barry and I took a screenplay credit, 141 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,760 which I think now probably we shouldn't have done, 142 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,680 because it was all there in the book. 143 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,800 It was a script editing job, not a screenwriting job. Right. 144 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,040 Because it was there. 145 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,840 You read the book and you're watching a film. 146 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,600 Both film and book tell the story of a boy whose secret life 147 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,840 with a trained kestrel transcends a loveless home 148 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:10,000 and cruel education system. 149 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,960 Having failed his eleven-plus, 150 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,760 Billy, like so many, is set up to fail some more 151 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,600 in a secondary modern school. 152 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,000 TEACHER OFF-SCREEN: Get out! 153 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,360 Weeks before leaving, his options for the future seem predetermined, 154 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,040 but he quickly reveals a defiance that becomes central to this story. 155 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,640 Right, then, well, would you like to work in an office, 156 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,240 or would you prefer manual work? 157 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,000 What's manual work? 158 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,680 Oh, it means working with your hands. 159 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,960 Things like farming, engineering, plumbing, things like that, 160 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,520 as opposed to pen-pushing jobs. 161 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,200 I'd be all right in an office, I have a job to read and write. 162 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:46,440 Hm. 163 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,680 Well, if nothing I've mentioned so far appeals to you, and 164 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,160 if you can stand a hard day's work and you don't mind getting dirty, 165 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,880 there are good opportunities in mining. 166 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:57,840 I'm not goin' down t'pit. 167 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,520 Oh, don't be put off by what you've heard. 168 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,520 Conditions have improved tremendously. 169 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,280 I wouldn't be seen dead down t'pit. 170 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,760 I started my teaching career in a secondary modern, 171 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,040 as did Barry Hines. 172 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,400 I'd hoped to visit the school that he taught in - 173 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,000 part of the film was shot there - 174 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,480 but it was demolished in 2010. 175 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:17,600 OFF-SCREEN: Action! 176 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,080 In its place is this shiny new academy. 177 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,880 It couldn't be a bigger contrast to the school in the book, 178 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,880 and I wanted to see if Billy's story resonates in any way 179 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,320 with the children being taught here today. 180 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,200 Before I prove conclusively that I'm as bad at real teaching as I was 181 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,960 in the '90s, here's me giving a nuanced portrayal 182 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,240 of a fictitious teacher that some of you will recognise. 183 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,640 Good morning. And shut up. 184 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,160 Maybe I could compose a regular memo with how it's all going. 185 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:48,320 OK. 186 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,360 Why don't' you drop that in my pigeonhole? 187 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,520 Great. Where's that then, Sir? 188 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,360 Any bin. 189 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,000 I've just walked past three classrooms and loads of kids 190 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,840 have been shouting "Gilbert" at me. 191 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,000 Inbetweeners lives on. 192 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,760 Right, I'm about to teach my first lesson in 14 years. 193 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,440 I'm shitting myself. 194 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:14,960 PUPILS APPLAUD 195 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:16,360 GREG CHUCKLES 196 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,280 Oh. Well. 197 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,720 Well, ladies and gentlemen... You all right, Mr Ball? 198 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,840 How are you? Good to meet you. You can sit down now, I'll take it. 199 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,480 I taught for 13 years, and that is the first time 200 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,440 I've ever had a round of applause coming into a classroom. 201 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,600 Do you applaud your teachers when they come in? 202 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,400 ALL: No. Good. 203 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,040 What did you like about A Kestrel For A Knave? 204 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,360 'The school's hand-picked class of pupils 205 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,240 'are disappointingly compliant.' 206 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,440 I liked how Billy wasn't, like, very good academically. 207 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,680 He found something he actually enjoyed doing, 208 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:49,920 and continued to do that. 209 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,880 'I was hoping to bawl one of them out, '60s-style. 210 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,800 'As you can see, alas, they're too nice.' 211 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,880 I liked how realistic it was, because it didn't try to 212 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,120 glamorise it, or try to make his life seem better. 213 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,400 'Being here, it's easy to feel that A Kestrel For A Knave 214 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,720 'is about a very different time and place.' 215 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:11,040 Come on, quickly, Casper. I've never seen such slack work in my life. 216 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,160 Does it feel real to see teachers 217 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,800 behaving the way that they...they behave? 218 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,240 SEVERAL PUPILS: No. 219 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,920 I mean, what would happen to a teacher at this school? 220 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:22,040 They'd get fired. 221 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:23,120 GREG LAUGHS 222 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:24,480 They'd get fired? 223 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,840 I was at the tail-end, when I came to secondary school, 224 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,760 of corporal punishment being stopped. 225 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,240 So in the first two years when I was at school, kids were being hit. 226 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,640 My science teacher, erm, Chunky Wilson... 227 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,440 Get that on record. 228 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,200 ..he whacked me over the head with a textbook this thick, 229 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:50,440 because I was talking. 230 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,520 Keep out of trouble. I ain't been in trouble, Sir. 231 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,440 Not since last time. 232 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,560 'I don't think there are any Billy Caspers in this class, 233 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:00,240 'but like anyone who reads the book, 234 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,600 'they connect to the themes that make this story so powerful.' 235 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,000 It would take a much longer documentary to capture the realities 236 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,560 of growing up in a modern-day Barnsley. 237 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:14,200 What is certain is that it has changed dramatically 238 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,160 since A Kestrel For A Knave was written. 239 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,280 For Barry Hines, Hoyland Common, 240 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,520 the mining community of the 1960s, 241 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,840 was a powerful backdrop to his work. 242 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,480 I'll let Barry explain this himself. 243 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:29,600 Me dad, me dad was a miner. 244 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,200 I was brought up in a mining village called Hoyland Common 245 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,320 between Barnsley and Sheffield. 246 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:35,400 And, er... 247 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,640 ..it was a typical sort of South Yorkshire mining village, 248 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,680 with the 19th-century company houses, and the council estate and 249 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,840 the pit at the bottom of the street, surrounded by woods and fields, 250 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:48,960 yet pretty close to...to a city. 251 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,520 It's that curious South Yorkshire environment 252 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,560 of the urban and the rural. 253 00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:58,480 Were you a great reader when you were a child? 254 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,640 I was a great reader of comics. Comics? 255 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,280 You didn't have a lot of books at home? 256 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,840 No, we didn't have books in the house at all. 257 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,280 What were the comics you read? Dandy, Beano, Rover... 258 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,160 ..then we used to swap the Rover for the Wizard and Hotspur, 259 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,000 and, er...and that's as far as my reading went. 260 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,360 This is where we actually shot the Dandy sequence, 261 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,040 which is where the coke...the coking plant was, which features 262 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,560 in the film, when you hear the... IMITATES MACHINERY SOUNDS 263 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:32,960 It was, I think, one of the geniuses of Ken Loach 264 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,160 that he actually used that sound effect as part of the story... 265 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:37,400 As part of the backdrop. 266 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,840 ..when he was reading the Dandy, you know, the comic... 267 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:40,880 Ah, right. 268 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,560 ..you know? Of course. So that when Dan was... 269 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:47,640 When Dan banged the culprit into the middle of next week. 270 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,600 "Take that. Crash! 271 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:50,800 "Where did he end up? 272 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,640 "In the middle of next week, Uncle Dan!" 273 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,040 He used the sound effect as if he was going back... 274 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,200 So, he used the coking... I didn't know that. That's... Yes. 275 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,720 See? Always learning. 276 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,520 'The perilous location for this interview confirms 277 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,600 'my creeping suspicion that the director wishes me harm.' 278 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,880 Just doing a bit of business. 279 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,080 'But we're here now, and I have much to ask Dai Bradley, 280 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,560 'the original Billy Casper, who was just a local schoolboy 281 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:19,000 'when Ken Loach cast him to star in the film.' 282 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,160 We start by getting sidetracked. 283 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,320 I mean, the opportunities to get into acting in the mid '60s 284 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:27,720 was virtually nil. 285 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,600 There was one talent show on TV with Hughie Green... Of course! 286 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,920 ..Opportunity Knocks. Opportunity Knocks! Yeah. 287 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,960 And I remember there was one guy, and he was completely naked 288 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,560 up...from his chest upwards, and he was able to roll his tummy, 289 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,400 and make his muscles ripple. His music went... 290 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,560 THEY HUM WHEELS CHA CHA 291 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:51,640 MUSIC: Wheels - Cha Cha 292 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,040 Ken Loach will love all this. DAI CHUCKLES 293 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,480 It's true! This is what you hoped for, Ken, right? 294 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,040 This is what he did. 295 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,400 That's the music every week. Yeah, I remember. 296 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,480 He used the same bloody music. I remember! 297 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,120 DAI CHUCKLES 298 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,120 I remember. I don't know. 299 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,920 And all those Kes purists out there - 300 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,600 broaden your horizons a little bit. DAI CHUCKLES 301 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,280 So, where are we now in terms of where the whole film was set? 302 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,360 Well, I'd say this is the outskirts of Hoyland. 303 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:23,600 Um...and...and most of the filming took place over there, 304 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,680 which is where Barry Hines grew up as a kid. And went to school. 305 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,000 It was a very physical kind of upbringing. 306 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,160 Um, the main things... I mean, it was a physical kind of place 307 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,360 in so much that most of the fellas worked down the pit 308 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,200 and, um, it was all sport, and... 309 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:41,440 ..and fighting. 310 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,280 OFF-SCREEN: Get him! Get him! 311 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,920 INTERVIEWER: You make a lot of that, of course, in Kes, don't you? 312 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,880 There's a memorable piece in which the two kids, 313 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,320 MacDowell and Billy, have a fight in the playground. 314 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,760 Is that the kind of thing that was part of your childhood? 315 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,920 Well, it was...until...it was up to 11, and, then, when I passed 316 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,120 the eleven-plus and went to the grammar school, 317 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,120 it all changed. 318 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,800 And... 319 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,160 ..suddenly, I was part of a... 320 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:13,680 ..um, a middle class... 321 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,320 ..institution, academic institution, 322 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,880 which I couldn't cope with very well at all. 323 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,760 Barry Hines' academic success took him to grammar school. 324 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,200 Eventually, he lectured here at the arts building 325 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,360 in the University of Sheffield. 326 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,320 'It is a place that holds answers to many of my questions about 327 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,800 'the boy from Hoyland Common who became a celebrated writer. 328 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,320 'David Forrest is the lecturer who watches over the archive, 329 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,240 'but before showing me key artefacts, 330 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,200 'he takes his cue from the director and attempts to kill me.' 331 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,680 I mean, it's a beautiful building. David, what...what is this? 332 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,920 Erm, so, this is a paternoster. 333 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,480 Er, I think it's the only one left in the country. 334 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,320 It's a listed building, so we've got to keep the lift, as well. 335 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,200 The whole building's lift... Hop in. 336 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,480 Yeah, yeah... What is it? Eh? Come on, get in! 337 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,200 I mean, that's...that's dangerous. 338 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,960 'I forgive David for the lift, and we get stuck in to the archive.' 339 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,400 I'm already excited. Tell me what we've got in front of us. 340 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,840 This is a scarf that was, erm, knitted for him by his auntie, 341 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,160 erm, because, so the story goes, the family didn't want to, 342 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:25,040 or couldn't afford to buy the scarf from the official suppliers. 343 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,960 We know that grammar school was a really difficult place for him, 344 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,280 because it was a place that he realised he was different 345 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:32,400 because of his class. 346 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,240 Obviously, it's never been washed. It's never been washed? 347 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,640 We can't wash it. We can't affect it in any way. 348 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,160 We don't want to shrink it. It's a very important artefact... 349 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,000 Yeah. ..of a very, very important working-class writer. So, yeah. 350 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,600 Of course! It does... Do you want to have a smell of it yourself? 351 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,400 I'm going to sniff it. Yeah. 352 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,760 I like to think Barry would want me to have sniffed his scarf. 353 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,240 Does it smell like school to you? 354 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,440 It does smell like... Does it bring back memories? 355 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,080 It does smell like... Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah, it does. 356 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,320 'I would like to point out 357 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,360 'that David sniffed the scarf before I did, 358 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,880 'but that has been conveniently edited out.' 359 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,440 Do you want to sniff it again? No, I've sniffed. All right. 360 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:07,800 I'm on camera sniffing it. OK. 361 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,880 So we've also got, linking to his experience in grammar school, 362 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,880 it's actually his report cards from grammar school. Oh. 363 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,960 VOICEOVER: Just to explain, if I make funny noises at this point, 364 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,480 it's because I have a weird thing 365 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,760 about touching real historical objects. It's just me. 366 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,600 He was going from his town where his mates were, where his family was, 367 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,440 to the city of Sheffield, 368 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,320 and you can see here he struggled a bit at school, 369 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,520 I think it's fair to say. So, we've got English - D. 370 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,760 French - D. But English... History, geography - C's. ..E. Yeah. 371 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:38,040 English - D, again, that year. 372 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,440 And, I don't know why that's a surprise to me, 373 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,040 but...but he wasn't a model student, was he? 374 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,600 No. I mean, he was a brilliant athlete. 375 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,040 I think that's really, really important to make clear. 376 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,680 He had trials for Manchester United, 377 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,200 played for Barnsley Reserves... 378 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,720 I didn't know he had trials for Manchester United. Yeah. 379 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,560 He was that good, was he? He was very good. He played football 380 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,240 at university with Bob Wilson, who played for Scotland. 381 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,640 He played in the first team there, 382 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,440 he played to a very high standard when he left university, as well. 383 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,000 So sport was a thing that was his passion. 384 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,640 This is pre him discovering George Orwell. Yeah. Yeah. 385 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,960 This is pre him even fantasising about becoming a writer. 386 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,600 It just happened by chance. 387 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,520 There were two things happened roughly at the same time - I was 388 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,560 in digs with a lad who was doing English for his second subject. 389 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,680 I mean, I wasn't even doing English, I was doing history. 390 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,200 And one Sunday afternoon I was bored stiff, 391 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,680 I'd looked at the paper and read me comics. 392 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,360 I mean, I were still reading comics when I went to Loughborough. 393 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:37,320 I never read...never read real books, 394 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,560 and I was so bored that this...this lad who I was in digs with, 395 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,200 as I said, who was doing English, 396 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,520 I said to him, "Have you got any books I could read?" 397 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,480 And he looked a bit doubtful, 398 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,520 cos he'd known me for several months by this time, and he went 399 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,640 to his shelf, and he found the thinnest book he could find. 400 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,160 And it was George Orwell's Animal Farm. 401 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,800 It's got about 86 pages. Big print. 402 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,080 HOST CHUCKLES 403 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:06,200 And...he's put me finger under the lines and set me off. 404 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,520 And I managed it at one sitting. 405 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,560 And it was the first book I'd read of my own volition. 406 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,280 I can't remember now what I got out of it, 407 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,600 but it must have just been the narrative, the story. 408 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,360 It was a good story, and I read it, and I though, "Oh!" 409 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,600 And there was a chink in the armour. 410 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,800 For Barry, football was a means of expression, 411 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,840 but when his flatmate introduced him to the world of fiction, 412 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,760 an alternative future began to present itself. 413 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,760 Barry's first wife, Margaret, 414 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,480 witnessed the metamorphosis first-hand. 415 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,400 'I put her at ease with some more top-grade clapping.' 416 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,760 When you and Barry first became a couple, 417 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,160 he had no ambitions to become a writer. 418 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,080 And then he went to London and he read Animal Farm, 419 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,400 and, suddenly, this ambition was born. 420 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,720 And I just wonder, was that a shock to you, 421 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,160 as someone...? Yes, it was a surprise. 422 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,520 He became obsessed with reading. 423 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,640 I don't know how he passed his PE certificate, really, 424 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,520 because... Because it took over to that extent? 425 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:15,360 Yes, yes, and he had a full-time job in a school in St Marylebone, 426 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:19,560 and he wrote at night and weekends, but he was a busy man, 427 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,960 because he also played for Crawley Town on Saturdays... 428 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,800 Football. Yeah. ..still keeping his football up. 429 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,440 Yes, but he was absolutely determined, even then. 430 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,480 Before he'd had his eureka moment and thought, 431 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,800 "Maybe literature's the path for me," sport was incredibly important. 432 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,920 Yeah, and his university dissertation, actually, is all about 433 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,920 the relationship between academic life and sporting life, 434 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,240 and the fact that for young working-class people 435 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,080 there are many, many talented people, 436 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,480 but they exercise their talent through sport. 437 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,440 But football as a form of expression... Yeah, absolutely. 438 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,160 ..rather than having a kick-around in a park 439 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,920 is such a fascinating idea. 440 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,040 So the whole... The dissertation was written as these long descriptions, 441 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,120 where he tries to write football as ballet. 442 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:07,320 And his first novel, the novel that he writes before 443 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,160 A Kestrel For A Knave, The Blinder, is of course about football. 444 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,280 And Hines writes the football scenes 445 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,160 as though they are kind of extended sequences of dance. 446 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,800 NARRATOR: "The centre forward rolled the ball to Lenny, who retreated 447 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,840 "into his own half and aimed his kick out to the wing. 448 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,360 "The ball rose and travelled diagonally across the pitch, 449 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:35,840 "curving down like a rainbow, a feed to the running wingman. 450 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,000 "The ball had beaten the full-back for him. 451 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,760 "Lenny pivoted on his left leg and swung his right, 452 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,280 "pointing his foot like a ballet dancer. 453 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,120 "The ball would've gone a long way if the net hadn't stopped it. 454 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:52,120 "Then he signalled the goal by raising his right arm. 455 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:55,080 "Mr Brooke spun a full circle on one heel." 456 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,280 How much of that early writing of yours is really autobiographical? 457 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,840 Well, the first one, The Blinder, was wish fulfilment, really. 458 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,520 It was me, erm... 459 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,040 It was what I would have liked to have been. A footballer. 460 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,360 A footballer, but more than that, it was... 461 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:16,520 ..it was the lad in it was George Best with six A-levels. Uh-huh. 462 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,000 That's what it was about. 463 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,960 Somebody who'd got everything going for him. Yes. 464 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,800 I loved writing that book. 465 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,720 I didn't know how difficult it was, you see, to write a novel. 466 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,280 I'd never... Never having been a literature student... Mm-hm. 467 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,440 ..and never having to do criticism, 468 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,200 and never having done a degree in literature, 469 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,720 I never had any of the great masters looking over my shoulder. 470 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,160 He didn't sit down and knock off a thousand words before lunch... 471 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,800 Yeah. ..he mined them. Right. 472 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,800 But his images were so eloquent. 473 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,680 There's a little line about a toddler on a tricycle... 474 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,200 ..whizzing down the pavement. 475 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,840 And he said, "His legs were going like bees' wings." 476 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,920 Ah, lovely. Yeah. 477 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,400 And, so you could see this little, 478 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,200 you know, this little kid doing this. 479 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,160 One of his literary heroes is Ernest Hemingway. Right. 480 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,840 And you can feel that...that spareness of style, 481 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,320 but that also means that it's very direct, and it's blunt. 482 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,200 So it's highly poetic, but it's poetic in a way which is economic, 483 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:22,880 which is almost efficient. 484 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,920 NARRATOR: "The sky was a grey wash, 485 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,520 "pale grey over the fields behind the estate, 486 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,240 "but darkening overhead to charcoal away over the city. 487 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,240 "The street lamps were still on, 488 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,120 "and a few lighted windows glowed the colour of their curtains. 489 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:43,440 "Billy passed two miners returning silently from the night shift. 490 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,240 "A man in overalls cycled by, treading the pedals slowly. 491 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,000 "The four of them converged and parted, 492 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,800 "pursuing their various destinations at various speeds." 493 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,640 I think he wrote three drafts of A Kestrel For A Knave, 494 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,480 and throughout I helped him with that. 495 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,760 We used to sit together and go through it together, you know, 496 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,320 and make decisions about which word to take out, which word to put in. 497 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,600 So you were that forensic about it? 498 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,000 Yeah. Yes. Together, you were... 499 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,560 ..you were you were analysing sentence by sentence, were you? 500 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:21,800 Yes. 501 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,720 He was determined, and he was driven. 502 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:30,480 The novel was published, and the film came, was made the year after. 503 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,080 Soon after that, Sally was born. 504 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,280 So you had a child, as well as all this? 505 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:40,000 Yes, it was all together, all in the same, sort of, few months, really. 506 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,640 12 months. What a year! 507 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,640 Yes, it was. It was a good time. 508 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,680 I mean, this is the sort of thing that's beyond exciting for me. 509 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,400 Well, you tell me what this is. 510 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,600 Well, this is the handwritten manuscript of A Kestrel For A Knave. 511 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,440 Erm... 512 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,600 I mean, it takes my breath away every time I see it 513 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,480 and I've seen it lots of times. 514 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,480 Erm, it... 515 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,880 He wrote everything by hand, actually. 516 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,920 And all the way through his career, you know, right up until the 1990s, 517 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,080 he was still employing a typist to type up his work. 518 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,960 So the early drafts of the script are like this as well. 519 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,120 And it's that, yeah, you can see the crossings out. You can also see, 520 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,040 he looks like he's spilt some water, or a cup of tea over there. 521 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,480 I mean, that stuff drives me mad. 522 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,040 This...this evidence of life. Yeah. 523 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,680 And the fact that I'm holding it, it's... 524 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,600 I mean, I've got no words for that. 525 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,120 Well, you can see the film, as well, can't you, right? 526 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:37,600 Yeah. You can... 527 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,240 ..you can really see it. 528 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:42,360 NARRATOR: "There were no curtains up. 529 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:45,800 "The window was a hard-edged block the colour of the night sky. 530 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,920 "Inside the bedroom the darkness was of a gritty texture. 531 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,920 "The wardrobe and bed were blurred shapes in the darkness. 532 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,600 "Silence. 533 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,160 "Billy moved over towards the outside of the bed. 534 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,720 "Jud moved with him, leaving one half of the bed empty. 535 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,080 "Then the alarm rang." 536 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,240 ALARM RINGS 537 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,320 Jud? What? 538 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,800 Thou'll be late. Shut it. 539 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,200 Clock's not fast. 540 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,640 I said, shut it. 541 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,560 Give over. That hurts! 542 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:24,800 Well, shut it, then. 543 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,560 I'll tell me mam on thee. 544 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,840 Shut yer stinkin' mouth. 545 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,280 Hands off cocks, on socks. 546 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,120 In a film, the writer is the most important creative... Yeah. 547 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:42,920 ..element in the film, without doubt. Directors are secondary. 548 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,360 Not all directors would say that, of course. Well, they are, though. 549 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:49,440 Barry was involved in every aspect of the filming. 550 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,280 Barry was involved in the casting. 551 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,240 Obviously, he was involved in finding the locations, 552 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,200 because he knew the place. 553 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,080 And we used the places that he had in mind wherever possible, 554 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,120 when he was writing the book. 555 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:07,360 He showed us what he'd imagined was the wall of Monastery Farm, 556 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:10,520 which was an old rail wall. 557 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,360 Yeah, I've been there this very week. 558 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,240 BIRD CHIRPS 559 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,160 The ruin where Billy Casper finds his kestrel was an inspiration 560 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,440 for the book, and used as a location in the film. 561 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,800 It still stands today. 562 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,720 I'm delighted when Dai Bradley agrees to help me prove a theory 563 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,160 that I've long held without any evidence to back it up - 564 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,960 that I am a natural falconer, 565 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,880 an uncelebrated exponent of an ancient art, a man who was foolishly 566 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,360 overlooked by the makers of Game of Thrones for a lead role. 567 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:56,760 Possibly a king. 568 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,920 Whatever. 569 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,800 We just need this glove to protect your fingers just on your left hand. 570 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,800 Yes, I do... 571 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,800 GREG CHUCKLES 572 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,560 Oh, God. Dai, was this not petrifying going through this 573 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,920 in the...? Not... Do you remember back then? 574 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,360 Not particularly. I was fascinated with them. 575 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,120 And the fact that they were... I mean, they were chicks when we 576 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:17,040 started out, it wasn't an adult bird. 577 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,200 So, I kind of grew with the bird... 578 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,080 With the bird! ..over the course of the film. 579 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,240 Whereas you're...you're heading in the deep water, mate. 580 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,280 Well, I am slightly nervous now. 581 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,320 So, just hold your hand just like that. Yeah. 582 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:30,920 And he goes to the highest point. 583 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,560 So, don't put your hand... Oh! ..any further down than there, 584 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,480 otherwise he'll end up on your head. 585 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,120 Right, am I... Hang on a minute. 586 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:39,560 ..am I holding on to that... No. ..there? No, just the bit... 587 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,800 That bit, there? ..between your thumb and forefinger. 588 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,680 You need to stay down there, mate. He can't see you. Oh! 589 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,120 Oh! What do you see, big man? Tiffin! 590 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:48,720 So, Greg, if you just let go. 591 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,280 Let go? Yeah. Here you go. 592 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,600 Go on, then. Wahey! 593 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,720 Hold your hand up and come round here like that... 594 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,600 Whoa! ..and he'll come across. 595 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,160 That's amazing. I didn't even see him coming. 596 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,120 Slightly unnerving when it stares directly at me. 597 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,360 Yeah. 598 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,680 He's...he's...he's really special. 599 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,640 I do feel like Billy Casper 2.0. 600 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,080 DAI CHUCKLES 601 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,640 'After I've hogged the hawk, it's Dai's turn.' 602 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,920 I'll stand where you were. Yeah. I'll stand out the way. OK. 603 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,880 Let's see how it's done. Where is he? 604 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,360 He's going to come... 605 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,960 He's sat on the ground, I'm afraid. He's going to come round. 606 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,240 DAI CLICKS HIS TONGUE 607 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,440 Kes! 608 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,160 BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE 609 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,120 Come on, lass. 610 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,520 BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE 611 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,800 Come on, Kes! 612 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,720 BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE 613 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,520 Come on, Kes! 614 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:47,760 BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE 615 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,520 Come on, then! 616 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,920 BILLY CLICKS HIS TONGUE 617 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,360 Come on, big guy. 618 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:56,680 Here he comes. 619 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,640 Hey, lovely. 620 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,080 Yes. 621 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,400 Oh, yes. 622 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,920 Oh! 623 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,000 I'll be honest with you, Dai, it could have gone smoother. 624 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,960 It could have gone smoother. 625 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,480 Good job we got the original, eh? 626 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,640 DAI CHUCKLES 627 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,200 Do you want to go to the perch? 628 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,240 There you go. 629 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,080 DAI CLICKS HIS TONGUE 630 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,480 What's this? What's this, then? 631 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,320 Yes. Nice and tasty, eh? 632 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,880 Bit of chicken biryani. 633 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,880 GREG CHUCKLES 634 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,400 I studied this book at school, when I was 11 years of age, 635 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,560 and the idea that I would be standing next to... 636 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,440 ..the original Billy Casper flying a kestrel is, frankly, ridiculous. 637 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,600 But, it's been so lovely, a lovely thing to do. 638 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,120 You can see why it was such a special relationship 639 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,200 that they had. I can't imagine what it was like for you as a kid. 640 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,800 Yeah. It must have been absolutely magical. 641 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,320 Yeah. Yeah, it was. 642 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,680 Dai's wonderful memories of a special time in his life 643 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,840 chime with Billy's love of his kestrel. 644 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,440 In a moving scene from the book and the film, 645 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,560 we see another side to school - a teacher who cares, 646 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,560 who encourages Billy to share his passion with the class. 647 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,000 Right, Billy, write it up there. 648 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,320 We see him talk knowledgeably about the technical terms 649 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,600 that he's learned. 650 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,000 Right, now tell us what that is. 651 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,800 Well, they're like leather straps, Sir, attached t'bird's feet. 652 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,760 This is the moment where Barry Hines speaks from the heart 653 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,520 about the power of good teaching. 654 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,680 And after a while, I put it two inches away from its claws. 655 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,400 And, er, like that, like. 656 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,200 OFF-SCREEN: It contains such a rich educational philosophy. 657 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,680 I think his philosophy, as a teacher, and as a writer, 658 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,640 is to meet in the middle, to meet that young boy 659 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,000 in the middle, to meet the Billy Caspers in the middle, 660 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,360 to listen to them, to talk to them, to nurture them, 661 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,000 to hear what it is, where it is that they're finding creativity, 662 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,440 an agency in their everyday lives. 663 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,680 Mr Farthing's interest in Billy doesn't stop in the classroom. 664 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,040 He makes a visit to watch the boy fly his beloved bird. 665 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,320 C'mon, Kes! 666 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,720 If A Kestrel For A Knave asks anything of people, 667 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,640 it's to find the thing that you love. 668 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,000 Precisely. 669 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,520 Creating such a unique rebel. Yeah. 670 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,600 Such an unlikely rebel, Billy Casper, isn't he? 671 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,640 He's a rebel, because he embraces the natural world, 672 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,920 because he finds wisdom and poetry in everyday life. Yeah. 673 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,280 These are actually, kind of, quite artistic, quite rarefied pursuits. 674 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:43,960 Yeah. 675 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,960 And not ones that we traditionally associate with that "Grim Up North", 676 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,520 kind of, narrative that we hear about places like Barnsley. 677 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,800 That's the beauty of his work. 678 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,680 BILLY: If somebody comes up to me and says, "Is it tame?" 679 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,120 Is it heck tame. 680 00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:59,560 Hawks can't be tamed. 681 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,800 They're manned. 682 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,000 It's wild, and it's fierce, and it's not bothered about anybody. 683 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,640 Not bothered about me, right. 684 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,680 That's what makes it great. 685 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,280 OFF-SCREEN: It's such a powerfully egalitarian message that all of us 686 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,560 can have poetry in our everyday lives, 687 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,240 just like Billy Casper. 688 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,280 It was basically saying that every child has a quality. 689 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,680 You should find that quality and nurture it. 690 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,240 It also is saying, "Why does this country, systematically, 691 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,520 "throw on the scrapheap at least two-thirds of each generation?" 692 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,200 It says all I wanted to say about a lad who's not academic, 693 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,920 but once he gets interested in something, he gets stuck in. 694 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,040 And what it does, of course, it gives him confidence. 695 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,800 And that's...that's key, that. 696 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,320 Because all of us, we need confidence, 697 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,920 and the middle class have got confidence in spades. 698 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,480 And, why not? I mean... 699 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,920 ..that's what they pay money for. 700 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,880 The story of a boy from a mining town who trains a kestrel 701 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,400 has enchanted so many people, because of the inherent sense 702 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,840 of truth, a feeling that this tale could have happened, 703 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,360 so it was wonderful to discover that Barry's own brother, Richard, 704 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,400 was the inspiration for the book. 705 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,800 He really did fly kestrels as a child, 706 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,440 and went on to be the on-set expert for the film. 707 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,960 Casper, lad, get to my room! 708 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,040 DAI CHUCKLES 709 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,200 I'll thrash you, lads. How are you doing, Richard? 710 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,480 Falling asleep in my assembly! DAI CHUCKLES 711 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,440 That's it. That's what I came for. This is Greg. 712 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,320 Hi, Richard. Hi, Greg. Pleased to meet you. 713 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,920 How are you? Oh, yeah, I'm fine, thanks. The two Billy Caspers. 714 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,280 Yeah. That's right. United. 715 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,600 Billy Senior and Billy Junior. Yeah. Yeah. 716 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,240 So, he really, really did base the book on you, 717 00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:50,760 or your experience with kestrels, right? 718 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,040 Well, some of it, yes. 719 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,240 Because I was the secondary modern school write-off, 720 00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:55,520 beaten at school... 721 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,080 ..and I got... 722 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,520 ..a kestrel. 723 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,000 I saw it flying out there, and I came with a friend. 724 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,560 Not here by the ruins? Really? 725 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,680 Yeah. That's where the nest was, in there. 726 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,840 And I climbed up... It's incredible, that. I came... 727 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,600 I came out of that wood there with a friend, 728 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,120 ladder on our shoulders, and we climbed up the wall. 729 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,600 Took the kestrel from there? Yeah. But what about the books? 730 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,960 What about the library scene? Is there some truth there? 731 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,360 Yeah, that's true. I did it. You went to the library? 732 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:23,720 I went to Barnsley Library. 733 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:26,640 What do you mean? Are you a member of the library? 734 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,680 I don't know about that. I only want a book on falconry. That's all. 735 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,040 Well, you have to be a member to take a book out. 736 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,680 And you nicked it. Tell me you nicked it. 737 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,800 No, no, I didn't nick it. You didn't nick it. No. 738 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,840 I went to the book shop, tried to order it. 739 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,720 It was two weeks. But I was so fascinated, I couldn't wait. 740 00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:44,200 So I went back to the library, got a notepad, 741 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,840 and copied it out by hand. 742 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,960 I wrongly presumed that Richard had continued to fly kestrels 743 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,040 for his whole life, and asked him to do it again. 744 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:54,640 Is it a he or a she? 745 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,360 Is it a Jack, or a...? 746 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,280 This lack of research provided us with something truly special. 747 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,160 NARRATOR: "She tried a new tactic and came in low, 748 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,760 "seeming to flit within a pocket of silence close to the ground. 749 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,360 "Billy flexed at the knees, 750 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,400 "and flattened the plane of the swing, 751 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,280 "allowing the lengthening line to pay out before her." 752 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:20,600 GREG: Go on, Richard. 753 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,960 NARRATOR: "She shortened her stoop and counter stoop, 754 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,680 "which increased the frequency of her attacks, 755 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,440 "and made Billy pivot and whirl, 756 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,400 "and watch, but never lose control of the lure or its pursuer." 757 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,680 C'mon, Kes! 758 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,680 GREG CHUCKLES 759 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,120 He's calling her Kes. 760 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,440 Old habits. 761 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,480 NARRATOR: "And she came, headfirst, "wings closed, swooping down, 762 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,920 "hurtling down towards Billy, who waited, 763 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,880 "then lured her - WHOOSH - up, throwing, up, ringing, turning, 764 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,680 "and as she stooped again, Billy twirled the lure 765 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,480 "and threw it high into her path. 766 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,040 "She caught it, and clutched it down to the ground." 767 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:56,800 Caught it first time. 768 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,440 Richard hasn't done that for 50 years. 769 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,120 It's us that's made him to it. 770 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,240 It's true! 771 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:07,440 What a little beauty. 772 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,520 Oh, that was brilliant. 773 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,560 I never thought I could do that again. 774 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,680 It was amazing. Absolutely amazing. 775 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,040 It's must be like riding a bike. 776 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,880 To have a hawk on my fist again... 777 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,080 Oh. I think I might get another one. 778 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,360 GREG AND RICHARD CHUCKLE 779 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,560 The film is faithful to the book's tragic end. 780 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,840 I can't see it meself. Right, ta. 781 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,200 When Billy fails to place a bet for his older brother Jud, 782 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,880 Kes' fate is sealed. 783 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,720 Billy spends the money on fish and chips instead. 784 00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,120 Here it is, then, the original fish and chip shop. 785 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,120 It's now called Caspers. It's been renamed. 786 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,760 Yeah. What a legacy. I know! I know! 787 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,360 THEY LAUGH 788 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,200 Let's go and get some fish and chips. 789 00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,760 Can I have a bobs worth o' chips, and a fish? 790 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,720 Serve him, will you, Mary? 791 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,160 Yes, love? Got any scraps, Missis? 792 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,480 Yes, love. 793 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,600 DAI: Can I have some fish scraps, please? Some? Fish scraps? 794 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,280 Yeah, course you can. OK. All right. 795 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,360 Still working it. OK. Still got the Casper magic. 796 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,200 There you go. You make the scraps on purpose now, though, don't you? 797 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,320 SERVER LAUGHS 798 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,440 Yeah. Yeah. I'm on to you. 799 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:21,880 Oh, thank you. There you go. 800 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,440 Only half as much for me, cos I'm not as big as he is. 801 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,720 Fat. Big. Fat. 802 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:28,160 DAI CHUCKLES 803 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,600 While Billy eats his chips, Jud's horses win. 804 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,360 The revenge he takes is heart-wrenching. 805 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,120 Billy retrieving the dead kestrel from the bin is hard to watch, 806 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,600 however many times you've seen it. 807 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,440 Well, Dai, I think that anyone who's read this book 808 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,240 has their opinions about this question, 809 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:03,320 but what do you think would have happened to Billy Casper? 810 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,800 Well, I felt that there was no life in the collieries for him. 811 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,280 He would not follow his brother into the coalmines. 812 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,040 I think you and I would agree on that, 813 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:15,720 that he didn't end up down the pit. 814 00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:18,960 That's right. He had too much spirit in it. And what we want to think 815 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,160 is that that spirit wasn't crushed... Yes. ..by what happened. 816 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,640 It's that attitude. 817 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,280 "Screw you." 818 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,880 It's that... And I agree with you, 819 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,000 ..but is that you and I romanticising it? No. 820 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,520 Is that you and I hoping that Billy... No, no, no. 821 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,360 ..keeps that fighting spirit? I think he kept that fighting spirit. 822 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:35,840 I hope so. I think he did. 823 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,480 There's a lot of kids out there like him, you know, 824 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:43,560 and what we need to do is harness that raw passion, 825 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,200 whatever it is that really makes them tick. 826 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,240 Time for a selfie with the V-sign master. 827 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:54,920 DAI CHUCKLES 828 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,440 GREG OFF-SCREEN: It's not the first one Dai's had to do today. 829 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:58,960 That's it. Are you in? Yeah. 830 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,000 Ah, he's doing the... He's doing the fist in the air, look! 831 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,880 The two fingers, there. Yeah, hang on. 832 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,120 That way. Peace. 833 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,240 Yes. 834 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:10,480 GREG CHUCKLES 835 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:10,480 Champion. 836 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,400 David Bradley, AKA Billy Casper, turned 66 yesterday. So you... 837 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:15,680 Absolute fucking legend. 838 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,560 GREG LAUGHS 839 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,240 Don't start with that... 840 00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:21,440 You don't seem to tire of... 841 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,960 Or you're doing a good impression, Dai, 842 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,440 of someone who isn't bored of talking about Kes. 843 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,720 Well, it's, kind of, been my whole life in a lot of ways, Greg. 844 00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:34,960 I realised very early on that Kes would probably be... 845 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,960 ..the...the...the the production that would kind of... 846 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,480 ..usurp everything else I'd ever do in my life or career. 847 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,520 It's defined your career... That's right. 848 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,400 ..maybe, yeah. That's right. 849 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,200 So, I embraced it rather than fought against it. 850 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,600 The fact that A Kestrel For A Knave remains the project 851 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,960 that both Dai and Barry Hines are professionally defined by 852 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,600 is no surprise. Its reach and influence have been phenomenal. 853 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,840 Time to speak to a well-known superfan - Jarvis Cocker. 854 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,280 Yeah, if you could come through to my office. 855 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,600 'And Jarvis has his own personal homage to the book's famous cover.' 856 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,720 The cover of the book was more like that. 857 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:20,640 Now, this photo haunts me really, because it's... 858 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,400 ..I've seen, like, representations of it all over the place. 859 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,680 But the reason this photo came about was, 860 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,960 I think it was the NME years ago, asked... 861 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,080 They were doing something, and they were asking what me favourite book 862 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,800 was, and I said A Kestrel For A Knave, and I brought it along, 863 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,320 and then I think the photographer just said, 864 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,000 "Oh, will you do that pose from the from the cover of the book?" 865 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,680 So, I did. It's so great. 866 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,760 Obviously, I would never normally... Be so rude. 867 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,080 No, I mean... I don't imagine many people who saw that image 868 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,880 realised that you were back-referencing a 1968 book. 869 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,800 No, totally. 870 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,640 It's my cover version of that cover shot. 871 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,920 Yeah. When did you first read the book? 872 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,600 First read A Kestrel For A Knave... 873 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,840 It was... We did it at school. 874 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,040 Everybody had to read in order, and so the big excitement 875 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,040 in the class was if you were going to get a page to read 876 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:18,520 that had some swear words in it. 877 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:19,800 GREG CHUCKLES 878 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,200 Because, you know, to be allowed to swear in class 879 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,240 was just considered the best thing ever. 880 00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:26,520 It's just the dream, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. 881 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,760 As soon as there was, like, a swear word they would be shouting, 882 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,360 "Tha dun't like bein' called a BASTARD, does tha?" 883 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:33,640 Cos that... 884 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,360 That was the most important part of the book at that age. 885 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,560 Yeah. Yeah. So that was... Yeah, that was my introduction to it. 886 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,040 What is it about the book that has made it a special book for you? 887 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,040 For me, that symbolism of flight, and of escape from... Yeah. 888 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,000 ..from your surroundings, or escape from...from what's holding you down. 889 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,760 And I think that was very powerful for me... 890 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,000 ..growing up. The desire to escape has been, historically, 891 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,080 a massive kind of engine for... 892 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,160 ..for people from the north, or not just from the north, but from... 893 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,760 ..from working class backgrounds, because it's, like... 894 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,040 ..it gives you some energy. You kind of want to get away from there. 895 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,560 You want to make something, or write something, 896 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,840 or sing something in order to help you... Yeah. ..get away. 897 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,560 To soar with your jesses off. 898 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,440 Yeah. Like, we all need to take the jesses off now and again. 899 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:23,880 GREG LAUGHS 900 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,600 God, we do. 901 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,680 God, I wish I could... And fly... And fly free. 902 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,360 There's a lot of catchphrases you get from me in this book. 903 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,280 We often used to say that when we were rehearsing, and that, 904 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,600 "You've got to take the jesses off". Did you really? 905 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,440 Yeah. In Pulp? Because you've got to... 906 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,840 Yeah, you've got to, like, let it... You've got to let it go. 907 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,080 I like that Kes, specifically, 908 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,520 was being referenced in Pulp rehearsals. Yeah. For sure, yeah. 909 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,840 I know why it speaks to a Northerner, 910 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,840 but why does it speak to other people? 911 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,760 Yeah, that's a good... That's a good question. 912 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:58,200 I think it's something to do with if you...tell a story... 913 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,840 ..in a specific enough way, people then realise that 914 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,120 there's something genuine about it, there's something real about it. 915 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,400 Because you could only really pick up on those details 916 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,680 if you'd lived that kind of experience. 917 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,400 In a weird way, the more specific you make it, 918 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,480 then that opens it up into like a universal thing. 919 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:23,360 I don't know. All my creative career has been dedicated to 920 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,800 trying to work out how that works. Right. Because I really think 921 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,560 it's true - if you get the details of stuff right, 922 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,600 suddenly it clicks for people and they say, 923 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,640 "Oh yeah, this is real, and I'm going to take notice of it". Right. 924 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,000 So, the devil's in the detail. 925 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:42,000 Barry Hines' keen observations of daily life in Hoyland Common 926 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,960 were key to this book. And that makes sense 927 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,520 to novelist Kit De Waal, for whom it all rings true. 928 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:52,760 I know that front room, I know the kitchen. 929 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,000 I know that school. So, for somebody like me, 930 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,400 very working-class, it was one of the few books that you could say, 931 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,880 "I know that world. I know that pub..." Right. "..I've sat there." 932 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,440 He... It really is a window into that time... 933 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,400 Totally. ..and that place. 934 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,000 But, I wonder, do you think that it's still an important book? 935 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,360 It is an important book, incredibly so, 936 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,120 because there are so few working-class books 937 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,760 written by the working class community, by working-class writers. 938 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,960 It's rare to have that. 939 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:23,600 And what... Why? Why? Why? 940 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,520 How's the landscape changed? 941 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,720 There was a real explosion of working-class voices in the '50s 942 00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:32,960 and '60s. How is... People say that, though. People say that, and 943 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,520 whenever we talk about the explosion of working-class writers, 944 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:38,720 it's against a backdrop of a huge body of work 945 00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:40,760 that wasn't working-class. Of course. 946 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,600 It's just that, you know, whenever you say "working-class writers," 947 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,520 The Loneliness Of The Long-Distance Runner, 948 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,080 Saturday Night and Sunday Morning, 949 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,560 and you very quickly will run out of titles. 950 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:50,920 OK. Very quickly. 951 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,400 So, there were just some big hits. Exactly. Right. 952 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,040 There were some big hits, and some really important works. 953 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,800 And this is always what I say about working-class literature - 954 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,120 there's enough room to have it. 955 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,200 You know, we want to see the whole of the UK, 956 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,440 and the whole of history, depicted on TV and in literature. 957 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,040 How many Pride And Prejudices are we ever going to see? 958 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,240 I mean, there must have been seven or eight of those. I know. 959 00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:19,960 But we have one... I mean, we're Darcy'd out now, right? 960 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,520 We're Darcy'd out, and there's one Kes. 961 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,640 Ken Loach and Tony Garnett adapted 962 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,440 three more of Barry's novels, 963 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,720 and there won't be many people who grew up in the '80s 964 00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:31,640 that didn't watch Threads, 965 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,200 his harrowing story of the aftermath of a nuclear attack, 966 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,560 which focused on the impact it had on ordinary working people. 967 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,720 Class is a theme he returned to time and time again in his work, 968 00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:45,680 a choice he angrily defended. 969 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:48,720 People say to me quite often, 970 00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:50,800 "Why...when are you going to progress? 971 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,840 "When are you going...?" I know what they mean. 972 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,080 "When are you going to write about something else?" 973 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,520 What they mean is, "When am I going to start writing about 974 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,560 "the middle classes?" I wonder if anybody said to Evelyn Waugh, 975 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,480 "When are you going to progress?" I wonder if they say 976 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,600 to Kingsley Amis, or Martin Amis, or Margaret Drabble, 977 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,480 "When are YOU going to progress?" 978 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,280 Whilst A Kestrel For A Knave remains his most high-profile work, 979 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,320 Barry continued to write unapologetically 980 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,360 about working-class lives. 981 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,200 In later years, he and his second wife, Eleanor, lived in Sheffield, 982 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,360 where he continued to work despite failing health. 983 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,880 He wasn't very good at spelling. That must have been...something... 984 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,360 Was he not?! ..coming on. No. 985 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,680 But, when he was well, when you were first together, when he was well... 986 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,360 He still couldn't spell very well. 987 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:38,640 GREG LAUGHS 988 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,760 No, honestly. Good. I'm glad... I'm glad to get it on record. 989 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,640 Cos I got called in every five minutes, wherever I was. 990 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,040 I think that's an inspiration to young writers to find out 991 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,440 that someone who could write as well as him couldn't spell. 992 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,360 No, his spelling wasn't good. Good. 993 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,880 As I say, he used to phone me at work every day. 994 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:55,160 "How do you spell this?" 995 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,960 So...so, obviously Barry was a working-class lad, 996 00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:03,920 but there was a stage, and, really, it was at the time you met 997 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:08,600 when Barry, you know, had had a lot of success, 998 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:13,320 and no longer lived in the place where he grew up, 999 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,800 and, yet, class was still so important to him. 1000 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,560 Oh, yeah. He would be delighted if somebody of his own, 1001 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,440 what he called his "own class"... Yeah. 1002 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,800 ..enjoyed it, and then came up to him and said, "That were brilliant". 1003 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,440 Oh, his day would be made. Yeah. 1004 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,720 Yeah. "That was all right, that was." 1005 00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,960 That's a quote that somebody said to us yesterday, that someone... 1006 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:36,200 or someone had said to him 1007 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,720 Either "That wasn't bad," or, "That was all right," 1008 00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:40,560 and that was enough praise. 1009 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:41,800 Yes. 1010 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,000 That was enough. "Not too bad." 1011 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,120 "Not too bad," yeah! 1012 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,120 And if we went back to Hoyland, he had to go to the... 1013 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,280 ..Working Men's Club. Did he? 1014 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,040 Yeah, he had to keep going to that to prove that he was a working man, 1015 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,120 or to be the same. Right. 1016 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:05,360 He was desperate, I think, to be recognised and loved, 1017 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,080 and everything, by all the people round about, 1018 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,280 because he just loved them so much. 1019 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,960 So, he still wanted to be accepted by them... 1020 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,720 Oh, he was desperate to. ..and to feel part of them? 1021 00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:19,520 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1022 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,640 And if anybody ever praised him for something, 1023 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,080 he was over-the-top pleased. 1024 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,240 He was just so delighted, because he thought 1025 00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,160 that they were a lot better than he was, 1026 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,040 because they were the people that he loved more than himself. 1027 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,200 Yeah. That's probably a bit mixed up, 1028 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,440 but you know what I mean? 1029 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,440 'Diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, 1030 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,960 'Barry moved back to Hoyland Common with Eleanor, 1031 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,760 'where he spent many happy nights at the local Working Men's Club.' 1032 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,000 I'm meeting bestselling novelist Millie Johnson, 1033 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,400 a Northern success story, 1034 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,360 who feels Barry made her career possible. 1035 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,600 I arrive early only to discover that, in a final act of sabotage 1036 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,320 by the director, there is a technical problem. 1037 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:12,760 Look if I stand up. 1038 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,520 MILLIE LAUGHS 1039 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,680 How did you get on with Barry Hines, Millie? 1040 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,120 MILLIE CONTINUES LAUGHING 1041 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,160 PUNTER OFF-SCREEN: That's just not right, is it? 1042 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:23,400 So... 1043 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:24,520 PUNTER LAUGHS OFF-SCREEN 1044 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:25,720 You're still taller than me! 1045 00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:27,280 THEY ALL LAUGH 1046 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,640 So, Millie, I understand you knew Barry? 1047 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,200 MILLIE GASPS FOR BREATH 1048 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,600 No, I didn't. 1049 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,600 PUNTER LAUGHS OFF-SCREEN 1050 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:35,920 Jesus Christ! 1051 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,200 Last time I did that... 1052 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,760 She's made me get on my knees... ..I got barred out. 1053 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,360 She's made me get on my knees, she didn't even KNOW Barry. 1054 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:43,800 MILLIE CONTINUES CHUCKLING 1055 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,400 Hold on. Hold on. 1056 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,360 No, I didn't. I didn't, I really didn't. 1057 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,720 No, he was just a big influence on me. 1058 00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:51,120 When I started writing, 1059 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,560 it was reading Barry Hines that I thought, 1060 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,400 "You know, this guy's done it." 1061 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:56,760 He's from Barnsley, 1062 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,280 he had the same background as me, 1063 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:05,120 and he wrote about the people around him... Yeah. ..here in this town. 1064 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,360 I mean, that's the reason why I'm taking part 1065 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,320 in this, really, is you never forget the first books 1066 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,600 that you suddenly think, "Oh, maybe I... Maybe I COULD read". 1067 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:17,960 Yeah. Yeah! 1068 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:17,960 THEY GIGGLE 1069 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,560 "Maybe I could be interested." Yeah. And that's the power of words, 1070 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,280 isn't it? Yeah. To drag you into the world of books. 1071 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:25,760 And it's a real door-opener. 1072 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,360 The longevity of the book is that it's still relevant today. 1073 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,800 And, you know, there are kids who are still as undernourished, 1074 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:39,640 both, in a, you know...by... with food and books. 1075 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:44,120 And it resonates as much today in today's world 1076 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,200 as it did then. It should still be on the... 1077 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,240 It's come off the curriculum, hasn't it? 1078 00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:50,000 I know. It should be on the curriculum... 1079 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,800 It should be. I agree. ..because it's... It is a relevant book. 1080 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,120 Yeah. We should start that movement... We should. 1081 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,240 ..to get it back on the curriculum. It started here. 1082 00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:58,880 You heard it here first. Right here, 1083 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,800 in the Hoyland Common Working Men's Club. 1084 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,120 There was a particular risk 1085 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,360 that anyone who lived and drank with Barry ran. 1086 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,480 As the club's manager, Mick Whitaker reveals to me, 1087 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,360 there was a strong possibility that you could end up as a character 1088 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:15,920 in one of Barry's novels. 1089 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,240 Some of the characters, that were based in here. 1090 00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:22,040 The one that Brian Glover played. Yeah, the teacher. Yeah. 1091 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,360 He were still teaching at Kirk Balk when I were there. 1092 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,240 Ronny were a games teacher, and he walked out wi' ball under arm, 1093 00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:31,360 "Right, I'm Man U, and you're fuckin' Barnsley". Is that right? 1094 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,560 Oh, aye. He were just like Brian Glover. 1095 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,960 Right, and it's Manchester United versus Spurs in this important 1096 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,560 fifth round cup tie here at Old Trafford, 1097 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,480 and it's the fair-haired, slightly balding Charlton to kick off. 1098 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:56,920 I asked Barry, and that character, based on Ronny Allen. 1099 00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,840 Oh, I love...I love the idea that he was watching...he was watching, 1100 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,480 Ronny... He based them characters, on people that he knew. 1101 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,680 You believe those people existed? Oh, yeah. They did. 1102 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:06,600 HE CHORTLES And we've all known Billy Casper, 1103 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,400 haven't we? We've all known... Still got some of them in 'ere now. 1104 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,480 HE LAUGHS 1105 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,480 Yeah, I bet. I bet! 1106 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,520 GREG CHUCKLES 1107 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,920 Tell me about your experience of Barry in here. 1108 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,720 He weren't...He weren't Billy Big, no, he were just Barry. 1109 00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:25,840 He just used to come in, he'd buy hisself a glass of red wine. 1110 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,640 Sometimes he'd come in wi' wife, sometimes he was on his own. 1111 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,080 He'd just sit here. 1112 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,960 Anybody approached him, he'd have a conversation wi' 'im. 1113 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,200 If not, he'd just sit here with his own thoughts. 1114 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,320 He knew what he'd done for round here. Yeah. 1115 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:40,840 End of day, he wrote that book. 1116 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,440 That book is brilliant. Yeah, it's amazing. 1117 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,960 In his later life, when he were failing, 1118 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,280 and he got his Alzheimer's and that, 1119 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,280 he must have thought summat about this place, because, 1120 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,520 as he got worse with his illness... 1121 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,320 ..he still came here. Yeah. So, he must've felt safe here. 1122 00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,920 Oh, yeah. Well... He must... There were summat... 1123 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,360 ..all accounts I've heard is he loved this place. 1124 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,400 There must have been summat about this place 1125 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,000 for him to keep coming here. Yeah. 1126 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,480 This place must have been somewhere in his head, or his heart, 1127 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,080 for him to keep coming here. 1128 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,240 Well, there's no doubt Hoyland Common was in his heart. 1129 00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:16,120 I mean, no doubt. Well, I think so. 1130 00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,720 There's no doubt about that. I think so, aye, yeah. Yeah. 1131 00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:21,000 It was central to everything he did. 1132 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,560 That book... 1133 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,880 ..will be read... 1134 00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,200 ..100 years from now. 1135 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:39,120 About what it was like to live at that moment... 1136 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,440 ..in that place. 1137 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,200 But as a writer, he also had a stance. 1138 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,480 And his politics gave him that stance. 1139 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,320 Some people are so poor. 1140 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,720 They have such, you know, poor lives. 1141 00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,760 Whereas rich people never say that they're rich. 1142 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,720 They're always hard-up, aren't they? 1143 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:04,880 That's what I was angry about - 1144 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,480 people who've got loads of money that never earned any. 1145 00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:14,160 'And so we end as we began - 1146 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,840 'me, inexplicably filmed from above, walking up a road. 1147 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,680 'As soon as I've put that shirt in the washing machine, 1148 00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,760 'I reflect on what I've discovered.' 1149 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:31,600 'There was something that Jarvis said that made me think 1150 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,200 'about the journey we've been on with this book. 1151 00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:39,280 'He said when he was at school that kids in the class 1152 00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,920 'were just excited to read out the swear words, 1153 00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,080 'because it was legalised swearing in school.' 1154 00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:49,760 And it made me laugh straight away, because I remember it SO clearly 1155 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,680 from being at school myself, and that kids in the class, who... 1156 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,000 HE CHUCKLES 1157 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,920 ..who wouldn't normally volunteer to read, were volunteering to read, 1158 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,480 because they knew there was a "bastard" coming up. 1159 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:05,200 And when I started teaching, my motivation was not great, as well, 1160 00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:06,880 because I was reading this book 1161 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,200 purely because I knew it engaged children. 1162 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:10,400 HE CHUCKLES 1163 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:12,520 I wasn't really engaging with the book myself, 1164 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,160 I just knew it would get them. 1165 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,200 I knew the story would get them. 1166 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,240 Something I didn't appreciate, as a 20-something-year-old teacher, 1167 00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:21,600 that's for sure, 1168 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:27,040 is, er, quite what an angry, defiant little novel it is. 1169 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:31,160 I should take "little" out. "Angry, defiant novel." 1170 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:32,640 And I love that about it. 1171 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,080 And that... 1172 00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,160 ..because there's so much that we should all be angry about. 1173 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,160 Especially now. There's so much that we shouldn't just put up with, 1174 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:44,760 going on in the world. 1175 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,960 It, sort of, makes the novel feel more relevant than ever, really. 1176 00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:54,840 In its central message of, "We should be looking after each other, 1177 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,480 "and we shouldn't just put up with the status quo". 1178 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,360 I mean, those themes couldn't be more relevant, could they, 1179 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,400 with the shit show that's the world today? 1180 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,160 It's a real work of art. 1181 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,480 It's a real rounded work of art. 1182 00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:13,680 And I hadn't quite appreciated that. 1183 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,360 And it's... 1184 00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,280 ..it's quite a trick to pull off something... 1185 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,840 ..as being so specific to a part of the world, 1186 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:29,320 and make the theme so huge and so universal. 1187 00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:31,000 HE EXHALES SHARPLY 1188 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,320 Clever bloke, weren't he? 1189 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,120 HE CHUCKLES